Penn National arrests

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by helicopter11

How is posting a false or misleading workout time a crime? Are these times monitored by a government agency? Granted its wrong but the worst case, he should be fired and never be able to work that position anywhere.

this isn't just a case of a mistake. he took money for multiple fake times, fake workouts where the horse didn't even touch the track. so now it's bribery, etc. he's a track official, and repeatedly altered info that bettors use to decide wagers.

people complain all the time about bad workouts, mistimes in both works and races. this guy did it on purpose for financial gain, and now he's being defended? that doesn't make sense.

[Duvalier]

Originally Posted by Danzig

this isn't just a case of a mistake. he took money for multiple fake times, fake workouts where the horse didn't even touch the track. so now it's bribery, etc. he's a track official, and repeatedly altered info that bettors use to decide wagers.

people complain all the time about bad workouts, mistimes in both works and races. this guy did it on purpose for financial gain, and now he's being defended? that doesn't make sense.

Anyone who uses or trusts the workout info in the program to decide wagers is the real fraud.

Originally Posted by Duvalier

Anyone who uses or trusts the workout info in the program to decide wagers is the real fraud.

What else can the public refer to when making bets? Magic 8-ball or Todd Schrupp? I believe he should be charged of a crime for misleading the public with his infinite wisdom of handicapping

[Duvalier]

Originally Posted by helicopter11

What else can the public refer to when making bets? Magic 8-ball or Todd Schrupp?

Do you ever read where Steve mentions the private clocker reports? There's a reason people pay a premium for those reports...they're far more accurate and legit.

[Payson Dave]

Originally Posted by Duvalier

Do you ever read where Steve mentions the private clocker reports? There's a reason people pay a premium for those reports...they're far more accurate and legit.

More detailed definitely yes...more legit, I disagree...more accurate, definitely not in so far as comparing final times.
If you have ever been to the morning works, then you would agree that right after the harrow breaks it can get extremely busy. Without a prior heads-up as to who is working and from what pole they will be breaking from it is impossible to get all the works properly timed...the program/pp's have accurate final times...usually more accurate than the private reports due to positioning of the official clockers. Private clockers (more often than the official clockers) also can miss early portions of a work..ie they get a half mile as opposed to 5f...
I'm not saying nor am I naïve enough to believe that all official workout info is completely accurate..but just like official race times the vast majority of the times the info is in fact accurate.
Once again without splits, outs, observation of horse/rider, ect ect...the final time of a workout provides limited value

[Duvalier]

Originally Posted by Payson Dave

More detailed definitely yes...more legit, I disagree...more accurate, definitely not in so far as comparing final times.
If you have ever been to the morning works, then you would agree that right after the harrow breaks it can get extremely busy. Without a prior heads-up as to who is working and from what pole they will be breaking from it is impossible to get all the works properly timed...the program/pp's have accurate final times...usually more accurate than the private reports due to positioning of the official clockers. Private clockers (more often than the official clockers) also can miss early portions of a work..ie they get a half mile as opposed to 5f...

Point taken. I still disagree with the bolded part above...I'm sure most are but there are plenty that are fabricated. What do you say in regard to the late workouts not published in the program that are announced at the racetrack prior to a race being run...ie. horses who haven't had a published work in say the last 30-60 days prior to running in a race that day? How accurate do you think they are?

[Payson Dave]

Originally Posted by Duvalier

Point taken. I still disagree with the bolded part above...I'm sure most are but there are plenty that are fabricated. What do you say in regard to the late workouts not published in the program that are announced at the racetrack prior to a race being run...ie. horses who haven't had a published work in say the last 30-60 days prior to running in a race that day?

Any horse that has not raced in the last 30 days and only shows one work is probably not one that I want to bet on.

[Payson Dave]

Originally Posted by Duvalier

Anyone who uses or trusts the workout info in the program to decide wagers is the real fraud.

The published workout info in the program/pp's in the vast vast majority of the time is accurate...however it tells such a small part of the story that using it as a significant handicapping factor is certainly risky. Private clocker reports clearly can offer value due to the additional information that they provide. This additional info which includes splits, outs, rider encouragement, workmates, and other info is not free....you have to pay for the private reports. Keep in mind that private reports are not regulated and are not without inaccuracies and/or incomplete info

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Duvalier

Anyone who uses or trusts the workout info in the program to decide wagers is the real fraud.

and it's this attitude held by many in the sport that has led to federal involvement. racing has a lot of money changing hands all the time. we're supposed to just shrug about cheaters, liars and the like? and then we wonder why our sport isn't as popular?

as for the gelding who is now intact, was there intent? a conspiracy to defraud? or just a mistake in an announcement. maybe the 6 horse in race 8 was a gelding, and they said the 8 horse in race 6 instead.
someone paying someone else to give repeated false info-whole different case.

[Duvalier]

Originally Posted by Danzig

and it's this attitude held by many in the sport that has led to federal involvement. racing has a lot of money changing hands all the time. we're supposed to just shrug about cheaters, liars and the like? and then we wonder why our sport isn't as popular?

The NFL is still popular.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig

and it's this attitude held by many in the sport that has led to federal involvement. racing has a lot of money changing hands all the time. we're supposed to just shrug about cheaters, liars and the like? and then we wonder why our sport isn't as popular?

as for the gelding who is now intact, was there intent? a conspiracy to defraud? or just a mistake in an announcement. maybe the 6 horse in race 8 was a gelding, and they said the 8 horse in race 6 instead.
someone paying someone else to give repeated false info-whole different case.

I still am trying to understand why trying to win is fraud.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I still am trying to understand why trying to win is fraud.

trying to win isn't fraud. how is falsifying data and paying off a clocker trying to win?
trying to win by juicing a horse is fraud. or at least cheating.

i'm surprised this hasn't happened sooner, with all the rumblings the last few years. some people have been saying for some time that racing needed to do more, have consistent rules, have a way to punish the notorious cheaters.
well, someone got cheated, or knows somebody, or the feds just had enough-or saw an opening.
of course it all may lead to nothing. the feds don't win all their cases. but if these people end up found guilty, they have no one to blame but themselves.
tracks want people to bet-it would be in their best interest to keep things as honest as possible. they need to take a page out of the casinos book-they don't countenance anyone working the system, and they get lots of customers because of it. if a casino was perceived as having dealers working for and with certain customers, they won't have other patrons for long.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig

trying to win isn't fraud. how is falsifying data and paying off a clocker trying to win?
trying to win by juicing a horse is fraud. or at least cheating.

i'm surprised this hasn't happened sooner, with all the rumblings the last few years. some people have been saying for some time that racing needed to do more, have consistent rules, have a way to punish the notorious cheaters.
well, someone got cheated, or knows somebody, or the feds just had enough-or saw an opening.
of course it all may lead to nothing. the feds don't win all their cases. but if these people end up found guilty, they have no one to blame but themselves.
tracks want people to bet-it would be in their best interest to keep things as honest as possible. they need to take a page out of the casinos book-they don't countenance anyone working the system, and they get lots of customers because of it. if a casino was perceived as having dealers working for and with certain customers, they won't have other patrons for long.

You seem to be missing the point. The impact on racing and the fact that there has been little or poor oversight isnt in question (Though 2 of the 4 were caught by state investigators)

My point is that don't they have to prove their case more than saying "oh they were going to give their horse an "illegal" treatment", that's fraud? Alan Pincus who apparently is going to be defending at least one of the accused has already made the statement that these are administrative issues, not criminal ones. Again I am not a lawyer but you'd have to believe that the burden of proving fraud has to be more than what we know considering the thousands of similar cases over a long time period haven't been criminalized.

[Cannon Shell]

And as far as the clocker is concerned is faulty equibase information really a felony?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You seem to be missing the point. The impact on racing and the fact that there has been little or poor oversight isnt in question (Though 2 of the 4 were caught by state investigators)

My point is that don't they have to prove their case more than saying "oh they were going to give their horse an "illegal" treatment", that's fraud? Alan Pincus who apparently is going to be defending at least one of the accused has already made the statement that these are administrative issues, not criminal ones. Again I am not a lawyer but you'd have to believe that the burden of proving fraud has to be more than what we know considering the thousands of similar cases over a long time period haven't been criminalized.

it is possible that it's a stretch to say it's fraud, but since the cheating can gyp bettors, i can see why they're trying to go that route. you're betting based on info given, and assuming a level field. cheaters are not just affecting race outcome, but wagering outcome.
it reminds me of capone. they couldn't prove criminal conspiracy, but they got him on tax evasion.