Penn National arrests

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I find it hard to believe that a clocker putting faulty works in the database would be considered willfully committing a criminal act. Virtually every "late work" announced at every track would be crime. That isnt condoning misinformation but I think it is a real stretch to make these criminal acts. Hell every year at Derby time we get Derby horses clocked with different times by different clockers.

there's faulty times, and there's taking money to falsify works, alter times, enter horses as having worked when they didn't step foot on the track. he didn't make a mistake, he's been charged with taking money to falsify info. big difference.

How is posting a false or misleading workout time a crime? Are these times monitored by a government agency? Granted its wrong but the worst case, he should be fired and never be able to work that position anywhere.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by helicopter11

How is posting a false or misleading workout time a crime? Are these times monitored by a government agency? Granted its wrong but the worst case, he should be fired and never be able to work that position anywhere.

this isn't just a case of a mistake. he took money for multiple fake times, fake workouts where the horse didn't even touch the track. so now it's bribery, etc. he's a track official, and repeatedly altered info that bettors use to decide wagers.

people complain all the time about bad workouts, mistimes in both works and races. this guy did it on purpose for financial gain, and now he's being defended? that doesn't make sense.

[Duvalier]

Originally Posted by Danzig

this isn't just a case of a mistake. he took money for multiple fake times, fake workouts where the horse didn't even touch the track. so now it's bribery, etc. he's a track official, and repeatedly altered info that bettors use to decide wagers.

people complain all the time about bad workouts, mistimes in both works and races. this guy did it on purpose for financial gain, and now he's being defended? that doesn't make sense.

Anyone who uses or trusts the workout info in the program to decide wagers is the real fraud.

Originally Posted by Duvalier

Anyone who uses or trusts the workout info in the program to decide wagers is the real fraud.

What else can the public refer to when making bets? Magic 8-ball or Todd Schrupp? I believe he should be charged of a crime for misleading the public with his infinite wisdom of handicapping

[Duvalier]

Originally Posted by helicopter11

What else can the public refer to when making bets? Magic 8-ball or Todd Schrupp?

Do you ever read where Steve mentions the private clocker reports? There's a reason people pay a premium for those reports...they're far more accurate and legit.

[Payson Dave]

Originally Posted by Duvalier

Do you ever read where Steve mentions the private clocker reports? There's a reason people pay a premium for those reports...they're far more accurate and legit.

More detailed definitely yes...more legit, I disagree...more accurate, definitely not in so far as comparing final times.
If you have ever been to the morning works, then you would agree that right after the harrow breaks it can get extremely busy. Without a prior heads-up as to who is working and from what pole they will be breaking from it is impossible to get all the works properly timed...the program/pp's have accurate final times...usually more accurate than the private reports due to positioning of the official clockers. Private clockers (more often than the official clockers) also can miss early portions of a work..ie they get a half mile as opposed to 5f...
I'm not saying nor am I naïve enough to believe that all official workout info is completely accurate..but just like official race times the vast majority of the times the info is in fact accurate.
Once again without splits, outs, observation of horse/rider, ect ect...the final time of a workout provides limited value

[Payson Dave]

Originally Posted by Duvalier

Anyone who uses or trusts the workout info in the program to decide wagers is the real fraud.

The published workout info in the program/pp's in the vast vast majority of the time is accurate...however it tells such a small part of the story that using it as a significant handicapping factor is certainly risky. Private clocker reports clearly can offer value due to the additional information that they provide. This additional info which includes splits, outs, rider encouragement, workmates, and other info is not free....you have to pay for the private reports. Keep in mind that private reports are not regulated and are not without inaccuracies and/or incomplete info

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Duvalier

Anyone who uses or trusts the workout info in the program to decide wagers is the real fraud.

and it's this attitude held by many in the sport that has led to federal involvement. racing has a lot of money changing hands all the time. we're supposed to just shrug about cheaters, liars and the like? and then we wonder why our sport isn't as popular?

as for the gelding who is now intact, was there intent? a conspiracy to defraud? or just a mistake in an announcement. maybe the 6 horse in race 8 was a gelding, and they said the 8 horse in race 6 instead.
someone paying someone else to give repeated false info-whole different case.

[Duvalier]

Originally Posted by Danzig

and it's this attitude held by many in the sport that has led to federal involvement. racing has a lot of money changing hands all the time. we're supposed to just shrug about cheaters, liars and the like? and then we wonder why our sport isn't as popular?

The NFL is still popular.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig

and it's this attitude held by many in the sport that has led to federal involvement. racing has a lot of money changing hands all the time. we're supposed to just shrug about cheaters, liars and the like? and then we wonder why our sport isn't as popular?

as for the gelding who is now intact, was there intent? a conspiracy to defraud? or just a mistake in an announcement. maybe the 6 horse in race 8 was a gelding, and they said the 8 horse in race 6 instead.
someone paying someone else to give repeated false info-whole different case.

I still am trying to understand why trying to win is fraud.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I still am trying to understand why trying to win is fraud.

trying to win isn't fraud. how is falsifying data and paying off a clocker trying to win?
trying to win by juicing a horse is fraud. or at least cheating.

i'm surprised this hasn't happened sooner, with all the rumblings the last few years. some people have been saying for some time that racing needed to do more, have consistent rules, have a way to punish the notorious cheaters.
well, someone got cheated, or knows somebody, or the feds just had enough-or saw an opening.
of course it all may lead to nothing. the feds don't win all their cases. but if these people end up found guilty, they have no one to blame but themselves.
tracks want people to bet-it would be in their best interest to keep things as honest as possible. they need to take a page out of the casinos book-they don't countenance anyone working the system, and they get lots of customers because of it. if a casino was perceived as having dealers working for and with certain customers, they won't have other patrons for long.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig

there's faulty times, and there's taking money to falsify works, alter times, enter horses as having worked when they didn't step foot on the track. he didn't make a mistake, he's been charged with taking money to falsify info. big difference.

We are probably talking like $50 for a work.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

We are probably talking like $50 for a work.

hey, i didn't say the guy was a genius.

how many works? is taking a couple bribes ok, but ten isn't? or is 99 ok, but not 100? it's like the joke where a guy asks a woman to have sex with him for a hundred bucks.
a hundred? no way.
he offers five hundred. no
he offers a thousand. she says no.
he offers ten thousand, she says ok.
they have sex, he hands her $500. she says 'what do you think i am?'
he says that's been established, now we're just talking price.

the guy has no ethics, and took bribes to alter info. is one or two ok? if he only made a couple hundred, no biggie? would i believe him if he said it was only so money? no. he's crooked (allegedly of course).

again, there have been countless conversations here and elsewhere about issues plaguing this sport. now a case is filed. i don't feel bad for any of those charged. if it alters others' behavior, even better.

[Duvalier]

Originally Posted by Danzig

hey, i didn't say the guy was a genius.

how many works? is taking a couple bribes ok, but ten isn't? or is 99 ok, but not 100? it's like the joke where a guy asks a woman to have sex with him for a hundred bucks.
a hundred? no way.
he offers five hundred. no
he offers a thousand. she says no.
he offers ten thousand, she says ok.
they have sex, he hands her $500. she says 'what do you think i am?'
he says that's been established, now we're just talking price.

the guy has no ethics, and took bribes to alter info. is one or two ok? if he only made a couple hundred, no biggie? would i believe him if he said it was only so money? no. he's crooked (allegedly of course).

again, there have been countless conversations here and elsewhere about issues plaguing this sport. now a case is filed. i don't feel bad for any of those charged. if it alters others' behavior, even better.

So what about all the prior misleading workouts being published around other racetracks? The stakes horse supposedly working at Monmouth when he was stabled at Aqueduct and working under a different name? Was that really fraud? How about all the late workouts announced at the track prior to a race, because the horse didn't have a published work in the required say 30-60 days...who is guilty of fraud there? Who allowed the work to be ok'd and the horse to run?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Duvalier

So what about all the prior misleading workouts being published around other racetracks? The stakes horse supposedly working at Monmouth when he was stabled at Aqueduct and working under a different name? Was that really fraud? How about all the late workouts announced at the track prior to a race, because the horse didn't have a published work in the required say 30-60 days...who is guilty of fraud there? Who allowed the work to be ok'd and the horse to run?

which is all the more reason why it's gotten to this point at penn national. look, i don't know why this hasn't happened sooner. i think a better question would be why did horse racing let it get to this point? had they gotten their act together long before now, you wouldn't have these cases now. the feds have been hinting around for a while, congress has made noises. tracks and others just kept going along like before. i figure someone made a call, or someone decided this could be handled this way. it ought to be a wake up call to anyone else engaging in this sort of behavior.