Penn National arrests

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by PatCummings

This is the big deal, and I think it's being slightly overlooked initially. Get caught attempting to do something, or actually doing it...and the indictment reads that this is, essentially, wire fraud.

The feds are arguing that the drugging or attempted drugging is an attempt to change the outcome of the race - as those races are transmitted via simulcast (wire) for consumption across state lines.

I'm guessing a place like Rillito Park, which doesn't distribute their signal, is free and clear from this.

My initial reaction to this, after reading the indictments, is that this could be just the first in a monumentally long line of "easy pickings." Whether/how it sticks is a different story, but it feels like this is just the start of a much MUCH bigger deal that is definitely not going to be limited to Penn National.

The end of racing in the country could be coming if they are allowed to interpret the law as any violation is considered wire fraud. In this case the three individuals were either caught, admitted to or were accused of personally attempting to administering the drug, not a third party like a vet. In Rogers case she was arrested despite her husband being the trainer of record for that horse.

In the clockers case if giving faulty information across "state lines" is considered wire fraud then what about all the mistimed races across the country?

[PatCummings]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The end of racing in the country could be coming if they are allowed to interpret the law as any violation is considered wire fraud. In this case the three individuals were either caught, admitted to or were accused of personally attempting to administering the drug, not a third party like a vet. In Rogers case she was arrested despite her husband being the trainer of record for that horse.

In the clockers case if giving faulty information across "state lines" is considered wire fraud then what about all the mistimed races across the country?

Mistimed races is different than taking money to purposely mislead and transmit false or completely wrong information...but I get the point.

Has anyone NOT heard of horses being given incorrect times in works at some point at some track? The difference between Friday morning before this announcement and now is that it is being identified as a federal crime. Ponder that.

[randallscott35]

I will believe that Pat when they take down one of the big boys from a major track. Not nobodies at Penn National.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by PatCummings

Mistimed races is different than taking money to purposely mislead and transmit false or completely wrong information...but I get the point.

Has anyone NOT heard of horses being given incorrect times in works at some point at some track? The difference between Friday morning before this announcement and now is that it is being identified as a federal crime. Ponder that.

While intent surely matters under the PA statues given and a broad interpretation virtually anything done and any faulty information could be considered fraud as long as there is simulcasting and wagering. What about odds manipulation where people cancel big tickets that they never intended on keeping to mess with the odds? Past posting? What about reporting or lack of 1st time geldings? Is that not similar to missing or faulty works? I know I'm stretching here but before yesterday it would be a stretch to believe that someone giving a horse an extra 2cc of lasix could be facing 20 years in jail and a 250k fine.

I'm just wondering what precedent these cases could cause. In the case of Webb and Rogers the Feds obviously are going to use their admissions against them and a legal question would be can your testimony in a hearing to a state commission be used against you? Could they start pulling case files from any trainer that has had a positive test and use that information against them and retroactively charge them?

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

While intent surely matters under the PA statues given and a broad interpretation virtually anything done and any faulty information could be considered fraud as long as there is simulcasting and wagering. What about odds manipulation where people cancel big tickets that they never intended on keeping to mess with the odds? Past posting? What about reporting or lack of 1st time geldings? Is that not similar to missing or faulty works? I know I'm stretching here but before yesterday it would be a stretch to believe that someone giving a horse an extra 2cc of lasix could be facing 20 years in jail and a 250k fine.

I'm just wondering what precedent these cases could cause. In the case of Webb and Rogers the Feds obviously are going to use their admissions against them and a legal question would be can your testimony in a hearing to a state commission be used against you? Could they start pulling case files from any trainer that has had a positive test and use that information against them and retroactively charge them?

Throw them all in jail then, people will straighten up right quick I would imagine.

For a crime doesnt there have to be evidence of willfully committing the crime? I dont think they arresting a simple mistake, which obviously this clocker did not.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

Throw them all in jail then, people will straighten up right quick I would imagine.

For a crime doesnt there have to be evidence of willfully committing the crime? I dont think they arresting a simple mistake, which obviously this clocker did not.

I agree. They also need to ban all horses currently trained by these trainers for 1 year. No Transfer, no running under an assistant. That way such great for the game owners that currently run their horses with suspected juicers will also put pressure on trainers to not cheat. This is good for the game long term. This will level the playing field for legit trainers such as Cannon

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by jms62

I agree. They also need to ban all horses currently trained by these trainers for 1 year. No Transfer, no running under an assistant. That way such great for the game owners that currently run their horses with suspected juicers will also put pressure on trainers to not cheat. This is good for the game long term. This will level the playing field for legit trainers such as Cannon

And the guidebook for who is 'suspect' and who isn't is found where?

As a proviso, be aware that many of those walking around wearing white hats take edges as readily as those in the black hats. But certainly the Court of the Internet will make it clear for everyone who the cheaters are who is pure as driven snow.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by Kasept

And the guidebook for who is 'suspect' and who isn't is found where?

As a proviso, be aware that many of those walking around wearing white hats take edges as readily as those in the black hats. But certainly the Court of the Internet will make it clear for everyone who the cheaters are who is pure as driven snow.

Is a guidebook necessary? All owners would pressure their trainers to run clean if they face not being able to run their horses's for a year. I own a 20 pct of a couple and will willingly play by those rules.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by jms62

I agree. They also need to ban all horses currently trained by these trainers for 1 year. No Transfer, no running under an assistant. That way such great for the game owners that currently run their horses with suspected juicers will also put pressure on trainers to not cheat. This is good for the game long term. This will level the playing field for legit trainers such as Cannon

I am all for a level playing field but criminalizing offenses out of the blue is troublesome. I want the game to make sense but by the same token I find it hard to believe that Sam Webb whose 10% cut of his horses earnings this year is 21000 or Trish Rogers who was caught giving 2 cc of lasix are running criminal conspiracies. If they are only going to go after the actual person giving the drug/med then nothing much will change. You think Juice trainers are hitting the horses themselves? I play by the rules but because most states dont tell you the rules and the PA statues are so wide open for judicial interpretation you dont even know. It is pretty troubling that the adjuncts my horse ran on in MD last month would be consider a federal crime in PA this month.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I am all for a level playing field but criminalizing offenses out of the blue is troublesome. I want the game to make sense but by the same token I find it hard to believe that Sam Webb whose 10% cut of his horses earnings this year is 21000 or Trish Rogers who was caught giving 2 cc of lasix are running criminal conspiracies. If they are only going to go after the actual person giving the drug/med then nothing much will change. You think Juice trainers are hitting the horses themselves? I play by the rules but because most states dont tell you the rules and the PA statues are so wide open for judicial interpretation you dont even know. It is pretty troubling that the adjuncts my horse ran on in MD last month would be consider a federal crime in PA this month.

I understand were you are coming from. Maybe this is the right idea but the wrong case.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

Throw them all in jail then, people will straighten up right quick I would imagine.

For a crime doesnt there have to be evidence of willfully committing the crime? I dont think they arresting a simple mistake, which obviously this clocker did not.

I find it hard to believe that a clocker putting faulty works in the database would be considered willfully committing a criminal act. Virtually every "late work" announced at every track would be crime. That isnt condoning misinformation but I think it is a real stretch to make these criminal acts. Hell every year at Derby time we get Derby horses clocked with different times by different clockers.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I find it hard to believe that a clocker putting faulty works in the database would be considered willfully committing a criminal act. Virtually every "late work" announced at every track would be crime. That isnt condoning misinformation but I think it is a real stretch to make these criminal acts. Hell every year at Derby time we get Derby horses clocked with different times by different clockers.

Huh? You realize some of his misinformation was works that didn't actually occur AT ALL....Like I ran the marathon this year in 2hrs and 25 minutes...except I was on my couch.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

Huh? You realize some of his misinformation was works that didn't actually occur AT ALL....Like I ran the marathon this year in 2hrs and 25 minutes...except I was on my couch.

Again Im not saying that this is ok but it is hardly a felony.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I find it hard to believe that a clocker putting faulty works in the database would be considered willfully committing a criminal act. Virtually every "late work" announced at every track would be crime. That isnt condoning misinformation but I think it is a real stretch to make these criminal acts. Hell every year at Derby time we get Derby horses clocked with different times by different clockers.

there's faulty times, and there's taking money to falsify works, alter times, enter horses as having worked when they didn't step foot on the track. he didn't make a mistake, he's been charged with taking money to falsify info. big difference.

How is posting a false or misleading workout time a crime? Are these times monitored by a government agency? Granted its wrong but the worst case, he should be fired and never be able to work that position anywhere.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig

there's faulty times, and there's taking money to falsify works, alter times, enter horses as having worked when they didn't step foot on the track. he didn't make a mistake, he's been charged with taking money to falsify info. big difference.

We are probably talking like $50 for a work.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

The end of racing in the country could be coming if they are allowed to interpret the law as any violation is considered wire fraud. In this case the three individuals were either caught, admitted to or were accused of personally attempting to administering the drug, not a third party like a vet. In Rogers case she was arrested despite her husband being the trainer of record for that horse.

In the clockers case if giving faulty information across "state lines" is considered wire fraud then what about all the mistimed races across the country?

big difference between a mistake and intentionally altering times and being involved in a criminal conspiracy. question is, why did the feds go this route? who got them involved? did someone say the track or the state wasn't doing enough?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig

big difference between a mistake and intentionally altering times and being involved in a criminal conspiracy. question is, why did the feds go this route? who got them involved? did someone say the track or the state wasn't doing enough?

I dont believe there is a big difference if the timing company/tracks have been alerted that the accuracy of the times are wrong. If you are knowingly producing and offering faulty times to people using the information to bet over state lines then surely you could be held liable no? People from this board have been talking about this subject for awhile and always expressed frustration that the tracks would rarely even respond when alerted to the issue.

Supposedly the Feds were tipped off about misdeeds at Penn natl right around the Gill issue. I doubt they really care much about racing or the track but an eager Federal prosecutor saw an easy way to pad his record. Busting semi-broke trainers who dont have lawyers on retainers on Federal fraud charges is like a walkover.

[randallscott35]

I somehow sense Chuck that you think this is a witch hunt. Surely this is about more than 2cc's of lasix...clean trainers have nothing to worry about.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

I somehow sense Chuck that you think this is a witch hunt. Surely this is about more than 2cc's of lasix...clean trainers have nothing to worry about.

I had a filly trst positive for Naproxen a few years back in KY. We had stopped treating her 7 days before the race which was 5 days more than the withdrawl time suggested. There was no mistake on our side because we were acutely aware of the withdrawl time and we actually ran out of the med after her last treatment. I showed the vet records and our own med log to the stewards as evidence. As we found out later the test for naproxen was too sensitive and they were having all kinds of trouble at the lab. No DQ, no suspension, mandatory fine of $500 (after Veitch told me that it would be $250 if I waived my right to appeal). Well under the way the Fed prosecutor is intrpeting the law I could be hauled into Fed court for admitting that we gave the medication that came back positive. Having to defend yourself in Federal Court for mistakes made by others is not something that I want to be subject to.