"What are conservatives trying to conserve"?

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by Riot

Nonsense. Forced sonograms are not FREE. The WOMAN IS FORCED TO PAY FOR IT. Who do you think pays for it? The government doesn't. The doctor doesn't.

How dare you pass a law that a vaginal probe has to be stuck in a woman against her will, against her doctor's advice, and she has to pay for it. What legislators think they have the power and control to force government object rape of it's citizens? That is exactly what you are supporting. YOU say a woman can't make a decision about her own body without YOU putting your two cents in by forcing her to have a sonogram. Bull.****.

Most Americans are Pro-Family Planning.

Republicans (*not all, but many in the party now) are dead-set against family planning.

Republicans* are anti-family planning.
Republicans* are anti-individual family rights.
Republicans* are anti-individual freedom over one's own reproductive life.
Republicans* want the POWER and CONTROL to tell women what to do with their own bodies.
Republicans* HATE women having individual freedom.

Republicans are the ones passing laws to control what other people can do regarding their individual families, trying to control what a woman can do with her own body.

It's appalling. It's completely against every tenant of freedom, of individual liberty, this country has stood for.

I've never met anybody who is in favor of abortion. But you nor the government have no right to tell families what to do in the privacy of their own lives. You nor the government have no right to force birthing on any American citizen, any woman or family. Especially in the case of rape, incest, or a damaged unborn child.

Abortion is murder - period, end of story. And all the handwringing in the world will not change that. And murder of the innocent should never be allowed under the law.

We've covered this before. Nothing has changed. All your biased statements do not further your desired acceptance of abortion.

And if the Republicans fight abortion at every turn - so much the better. Enough. There has been enough fetal extermination since 1973 to last centuries.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by joeydb

Abortion is murder - period, end of story. And all the handwringing in the world will not change that. And murder of the innocent should never be allowed under the law.

We've covered this before. Nothing has changed. All your biased statements do not further your desired acceptance of abortion.

And if the Republicans fight abortion at every turn - so much the better. Enough. There has been enough fetal extermination since 1973 to last centuries.

Make no mistake: I am firmly anti-abortion. Where we differ is that I do not want to give the government unlimited power over individuals to force current legislators personal morality on American citizens. You want government control. I want individual freedom.

[wiphan]

Originally Posted by Riot

Make no mistake: I am firmly anti-abortion. Where we differ is that I do not want to give the government unlimited power over individuals to force current legislators personal morality on American citizens. You want government control. I want individual freedom.

Why then do you support Obamacare? Last I checked supporting Obamacare doesn't involve individual freedom

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by wiphan

Why then do you support Obamacare? Last I checked supporting Obamacare doesn't involve individual freedom

because it's obama care. if it was bush care, she'd be against it. no, that's not really true.

thing is, it's got nothing to do with logic at all. it's illogical to complain if it's knocked down as unconstitutional, but the same people complaining about that ruling are all for other rulings-altho another group would argue that other rulings (such as roe v wade) are incorrect. you know, like gun control. it's constitutionally protected-but suddenly what was once so clear (privacy is a right, freedom of religion is a right) suddenly isn't quite so clear, is it??

bah, yet another type of argument used by both parties and their supporters. each uses the constitution to support their pov, and then tries to show why it shouldn't be used in others.

and those of us who try to apply it across the board....we're genuises or morons, depending on the particular topic and who agrees or disagrees. it's great.

[wiphan]

Originally Posted by Danzig

because it's obama care. if it was bush care, she'd be against it. no, that's not really true.

thing is, it's got nothing to do with logic at all. it's illogical to complain if it's knocked down as unconstitutional, but the same people complaining about that ruling are all for other rulings-altho another group would argue that other rulings (such as roe v wade) are incorrect. you know, like gun control. it's constitutionally protected-but suddenly what was once so clear (privacy is a right, freedom of religion is a right) suddenly isn't quite so clear, is it??

bah, yet another type of argument used by both parties and their supporters. each uses the constitution to support their pov, and then tries to show why it shouldn't be used in others.

and those of us who try to apply it across the board....we're genuises or morons, depending on the particular topic and who agrees or disagrees. it's great.

well said. I just want less government. People have to live with their own choices and the government can't protect stupid people from making stupid choices. The less government involvement in my life the better.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Danzig

because it's obama care. if it was bush care, she'd be against it. no, that's not really true.

Actually, yes, I was for the Obamacare plan when it was the Heritage Foundation-created Republican-offered Gingrich-care presented as a personal freedom, free-market solution by the GOP against Hillarycare in the 1990s.

The Republicans are just pissed they couldn't get it passed, and Obama stole their plan and did pass it.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by wiphan

Why then do you support Obamacare? Last I checked supporting Obamacare doesn't involve individual freedom

Actually it does: the mandate, requiring individual personal responsibility for one's health care costs, rather than putting your cost on others, by purchasing your own insurance is a staunchly Republican- and conservative- created idea for the past 20 years.

The mandate = personal responsibility. No freeloading off others.

[wiphan]

Originally Posted by Riot

Actually it does: the mandate, requiring individual personal responsibility for one's health care costs, rather than putting your cost on others, by purchasing your own insurance is a staunchly Republican- and conservative- created idea for the past 20 years.

The mandate = personal responsibility. No freeloading off others.

I am not talking republican/democrat. I am specifically pointing out that on the one hand you want individual freedom from the goverment on one topic and then on another you want a government mandate. That is all. Thanks.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by wiphan

I am not talking republican/democrat. I am specifically pointing out that on the one hand you want individual freedom from the goverment on one topic and then on another you want a government mandate. That is all. Thanks.

I am pointing out that being responsible for purchasing one's own health insurance, rather than living off everyone else's $$$ by us paying your costs of going to the ER when you're sick and uninsured, is plenty of individual freedom and responsibility. That is all. Thanks.

[Riot]

Here is an excellent analysis piece on the legislative history of the "individual mandate" - it's been around since Ronald Reagans first unfunded universal health care requirement mandate:

"The Tortuous Conservative History of the Individual Mandate"

... snip ...

Before we get to Stuart’s piece, let’s first step back and discuss the history of the individual mandate. It all started with a piece of legislation passed in 1986 by a Democratic House and a Republican Senate and signed by Ronald Reagan, called the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act, or EMTALA.

(EMTALA was passed as part of a larger budget bill called the Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act, or COBRA, which is best known for allowing those who have lost their jobs to continue buying health insurance through their old employer’s group plan.)

EMTALA, one of the great unfunded mandates in American history, required any hospital participating in Medicare—that is to say, nearly all of them—to provide emergency care to anyone who needs it, including illegal immigrants, regardless of ability to pay.

Indeed, EMTALA can be accurately said to have established universal health care in America—with nary a whimper from conservative activists.

Continued ....

http://www.forbes.com/sites/aroy/201...idual-mandate/

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by joeydb

Abortion is murder - period, end of story. And all the handwringing in the world will not change that. And murder of the innocent should never be allowed under the law.

We've covered this before. Nothing has changed. All your biased statements do not further your desired acceptance of abortion.

And if the Republicans fight abortion at every turn - so much the better. Enough. There has been enough fetal extermination since 1973 to last centuries.

yes, we have covered this before. the bolded above, as i have said before, is your opinion. it's not a fact.
as for republicans, yes, some do fight it at every turn. it's probably one of the many reasons their membership continues to decrease every year. no doubt this issue, and others in which they show that they really aren't interested in smaller govt is why many turn to other candidates. the party of less intrusion is all for intrusion in certain circumstances.
you said they are trying to conserve freedom, yet you're explaining one freedom that should be taken away. don't you see the irony in that?

[ArlJim78]

most republicans are simply anti abortion and would like that their tax dollars don't fund it, very few take the extreme positions that people here are ascribing to them, such as taking away freedoms(some would say freedom to murder). Abortion is trotted out every election cycle, it's used to whip folks into a frenzy, suddenly out of nowhere people are talking about a war on women, the equivalent of the American Taliban, huh? unfortunately it's all a sideshow to distract you from the real damage being done.
the truth is that these social issues are divisive and are not clearly defined by parties. abortion, gay marriage, they both have supporters and detractors in the major parties.

the size and scope of government is the main issue that divides the left and right. the left is only too happy to seek one government solution after another. people on the right simply wonder why when this approach is failing so miserably around the world do people keep pounding the drums for bailouts, new programs, higher taxes (on those other people), increased government spending, new social programs, government takeover of healthcare, etc, etc. please put down the kool aid, dust off your spectacles and take an honest look at what lies ahead. We are on an unsustainable path. doesn't anyone realize what that means? it mean your kids and grandkids will live with a reduced standard of living, that we are done moving forward and now will simply spiral down the drain. these economic shocks that we experienced recently are nothing like what is coming. there is not enough money in the world for us to pay off our obligations over the next 50 years and its our children who are going to be left holding the bag.
this isn't going to go away either, we won't wake up and it will all be gone like a bad dream, time won't heal this wound, it will only make it worse the more time that we continue in this way. we can either do something about it, or we can keep listening to the statists and con men in the government media complex who tell us that our government is wonderful and that they are really taking great care of things for us, when all they are really about is taking care of themselves..

[Riot]

The Hyde Amendment has made it illegal for federal funds to fund abortion for the past 30 years. Zero federal funds are used for abortion.

Republicans can rest assured that no federal funds ever have been, or are used, for abortion.

In spite of that, the facts are that Republicans in Congress and state governments have indeed waged an aggressive and newly renewed war on women's rights over the past two years, even trying to make birth control illegal. Let alone the multiple bills that have been passed this past year legalizing the government requiring object rape of women via vaginal ultrasound penetration, not only against the woman and doctors objection, but requiring the woman to pay for it.

That is nothing other than massive, unprecedented government interference of the individual rights of citizens of this country.

Birth control prevents abortions. A perfect example of a ridiculous war on women with the same Republican party presenting strangely opposing ideas: not only do they want to outlaw abortion that is now legal, but they want to outlaw the birth control that prevents abortions.

The numbers prove an unprecedented current attack on women, and their currently legal rights. To pretend otherwise is absurd. If one is a woman, this is no "sideshow of distraction". It is the reality of trying to keep women home and pregnant.

It is true that demographic changes affect this struggle. But demographic changes did not cause the struggle, nor do they lie at its roots. It is also true, I think, that the views represented by the likes of Rick Santorum are fading, and that his screams against the changes he cannot prevent are like a death rattle.

That doesn't mean they can't do damage, doesn't mean they can't temporarily prevail. But they know their time is passing and that the next generation will not react with shock to the changes that shock Santorum, because they will not experience them as changes, because they will have gotten used to them, because they grew up with them.

There may be as many young women, including Catholic women, as ever who regard themselves as conservative. But nearly all of them use birth control, before as well as during marriage. Gays will be accepted, just as a stroll through the schools of rural Georgia or the streets of Jackson, Miss. today does not reveal what went on there in 1963.

Problems will not end, the competition among values will not end, but the vision of life that Rick Santorum clings to will end, or diminish to a point where it is not politically viable.

Chait is right that the Republican right wing knows this; he is right that they see this as their last shot (it may not be; I wouldn't celebrate victory quite yet); he is right that they are responding with a strategy that will probably end in hastening their political demise (having cultivated that fundamentalist reaction for decades, the Republican Party has backed itself into a corner); and he is right that demographics is affecting the outcome, and will do so over the next decade. But to understand what is happening politically, I think one has to understand that this is about more than demographics: it is about fundamental social change and the reaction to it.

And the fundamental changes at stake and at issue are mostly about rights, the rights won by submerged and subordinate groups roughly between 1954 and 1973, and the privileges and powers lost or limited, or perceived to be lost, by those who benefited, however unjustly, from the subordination of others.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

most republicans are simply anti abortion and would like that their tax dollars don't fund it, very few take the extreme positions that people here are ascribing to them, such as taking away freedoms(some would say freedom to murder). Abortion is trotted out every election cycle, it's used to whip folks into a frenzy, suddenly out of nowhere people are talking about a war on women, the equivalent of the American Taliban, huh? unfortunately it's all a sideshow to distract you from the real damage being done.
the truth is that these social issues are divisive and are not clearly defined by parties. abortion, gay marriage, they both have supporters and detractors in the major parties.

the size and scope of government is the main issue that divides the left and right. the left is only too happy to seek one government solution after another. people on the right simply wonder why when this approach is failing so miserably around the world do people keep pounding the drums for bailouts, new programs, higher taxes (on those other people), increased government spending, new social programs, government takeover of healthcare, etc, etc. please put down the kool aid, dust off your spectacles and take an honest look at what lies ahead. We are on an unsustainable path. doesn't anyone realize what that means? it mean your kids and grandkids will live with a reduced standard of living, that we are done moving forward and now will simply spiral down the drain. these economic shocks that we experienced recently are nothing like what is coming. there is not enough money in the world for us to pay off our obligations over the next 50 years and its our children who are going to be left holding the bag.
this isn't going to go away either, we won't wake up and it will all be gone like a bad dream, time won't heal this wound, it will only make it worse the more time that we continue in this way. we can either do something about it, or we can keep listening to the statists and con men in the government media complex who tell us that our government is wonderful and that they are really taking great care of things for us, when all they are really about is taking care of themselves..

It's fascinating to me that during the 8 years Bush was running 2 unfunded wars, slashing taxes and forcing through a major new entitlement (Medicare Part D) not a peep was heard from conservatives. But come the inauguration of Obama, suddenly the deficit is the major threat to America's future. And the only way to deal with it, of course, is to slash programs for the poor and middle class. Because shut up, that's why.

Come on, now. Your guy, Cheney, said, and I quote, "Reagan proved that deficits don't matter."

Unless you were posting lots of screeds here against runaway Republican spending during the years 2000-2008. You may have; I don't remember. Please post links to those threads if you did.

Modern conservatism can be summed up in, "If libruls are fer it, we're agin' it!"

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

It's fascinating to me that during the 8 years Bush was running 2 unfunded wars, slashing taxes and forcing through a major new entitlement (Medicare Part D) not a peep was heard from conservatives. But come the inauguration of Obama, suddenly the deficit is the major threat to America's future. And the only way to deal with it, of course, is to slash programs for the poor and middle class. Because shut up, that's why.

Come on, now. Your guy, Cheney, said, and I quote, "Reagan proved that deficits don't matter."

Unless you were posting lots of screeds here against runaway Republican spending during the years 2000-2008. You may have; I don't remember. Please post links to those threads if you did.

Modern conservatism can be summed up in, "If libruls are fer it, we're agin' it!"

that quote is 100% correct. What also is 100% correct is the librul motto "if repubs are for it we are against it"

its the main reason our country is so fucl<ed up. both parties just attack each other, there is no middle ground.....

UNTIL


you go behind the scenes and the guys from both parties are golfing and drinking and laughing to each other about how they've punked the american people into thinking the sides are different from each other and that the government gives a crap about the people they are supposed to represent.


the Bush years sucked. the Obama years have been equally as shitty, with no end in sight.

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

that quote is 100% correct. What also is 100% correct is the librul motto "if repubs are for it we are against it"

its the main reason our country is so fucl<ed up. both parties just attack each other, there is no middle ground.....

UNTIL


you go behind the scenes and the guys from both parties are golfing and drinking and laughing to each other about how they've punked the american people into thinking the sides are different from each other and that the government gives a crap about the people they are supposed to represent.


the Bush years sucked. the Obama years have been equally as shitty, with no end in sight.

This is the prevailing wind right now.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

This is the prevailing wind right now.

So the owners of the government realize that they have been discovered so what is their next step? Use their owned media to incite a race war. It will shift focus while they continue to pick our pockets.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

that quote is 100% correct. What also is 100% correct is the librul motto "if repubs are for it we are against it"

its the main reason our country is so fucl<ed up. both parties just attack each other, there is no middle ground.....

UNTIL


you go behind the scenes and the guys from both parties are golfing and drinking and laughing to each other about how they've punked the american people into thinking the sides are different from each other and that the government gives a crap about the people they are supposed to represent.


the Bush years sucked. the Obama years have been equally as shitty, with no end in sight.