"What are conservatives trying to conserve"?

[mclem0822]

Originally Posted by joeydb

Freedom!

You mean the Anti- freedom party, I beg to differ! Conservative want to control what a women does with her body, that's not freedom! They wanna control who we marry, that isn't freedom! They Hate FREEDOM they love POWER, and CONTROL! That is NOT freedom in my book!

[Riot]

Chait's emphasis on demographic shifts is powerful and mainly on target, but there is a broader historical context to his analysis that complements, extends and better explains the hysteria dominating the current rhetoric of the Republican party. In other words, there is content to all of this.

Most, if not all, political and social retreats from reality and descents into "once there was a golden age" fundamentalist fervor are the result of a panic reaction to fundamental change and a resistance to modernity that cannot be assimilated or accepted, and that so unsettles the ground rules by which they live and have always lived that they lash out at the changes, or what they see as the symbols of those changes, in a desperate, if ultimately futile attempt to hold back the sea.

This is what characterized the wave of fundamentalist politics in the 1920s in America, when the advancements of science (as especially symbolized by evolution) so threatened the world as many people knew it, that they arose in a wave of repressive reaction to try and block it.

This was also the period in which the world turned upside down when women won the right to vote (1920); it was the period when labor unions became strong and challenged the prevailing distributions of economic power; it was the period when the NAACP was created (1909) and the ACLU (1920). This is the period when Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood (connection to the present intended), was arrested every other day on the streets of New York for distributing informational leaflets and pamphlets on birth control; this was the period when the late 19th-century Comstock laws outlawed obscene materials, but also defined information about contraception as pornographic and banned its distribution; this was the period when John Scopes was tried and convicted for teaching evolution in Tennessee, a case so important in the evolving struggle to hold back the sea that no less than William Jennings Bryan was brought in to the small town of Dayton to prosecute Scopes. It was the jazz age, new, unbridled dances and scary music, most of it played by blacks. It was the time of Strawinsky, Gertude Stein and the new cubist art. It was also the time of Freud, and of Einstein's startling theories.

To many who lived traditional lives rooted in the past, these developments were profoundly unsettling; social patterns, indeed reality as many knew it, and the rules that governed reality, seemed everywhere to be in chaos and under attack. Many worried that everything valuable and important was ending, that society itself was becoming unmoored. Waves of fundamentalist revivalism developed, and seeped into American politics. This was when alcohol Prohibition passed (1919, effective 1920, not to be repealed until the New Deal). Much the same thing happened again as a reaction to the profound changes during the 1960s.

..

[Riot]

22 March 12
The Science of Truthiness: Why Conservatives Deny Global Warming

http://www.desmogblog.com/science-tr...global-warming

There's lots of scientific study about the differences in how people think, and it's being applied to politics in interesting and new ways (and this article has a few comments about "liberals", too)

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by mclem0822

You mean the Anti- freedom party, I beg to differ! Conservative want to control what a women does with her body, that's not freedom! They wanna control who we marry, that isn't freedom! They Hate FREEDOM they love POWER, and CONTROL! That is NOT freedom in my book!

This is easily reversed depending on one's perspective.

The real anti-freedom party is the Democrats. They want to control what everybody does with their body. They wanna control what we eat - that isn't freedom. They want to ruthless destroy innocent life, regardless of what the father thinks, and depriving the mother of a free sonogram to evaluate her decision. They Hate FREEDOM they love POWER, and CONTROL.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by joeydb

This is easily reversed depending on one's perspective.
The real anti-freedom party is the Democrats. They want to control what everybody does with their body.
They wanna control what we eat - that isn't freedom. They want to ruthless destroy innocent life, regardless of what the father thinks, and depriving the mother of a free sonogram to evaluate her decision. They Hate FREEDOM they love POWER, and CONTROL.

Nonsense. Forced sonograms are not FREE. The WOMAN IS FORCED TO PAY FOR IT. Who do you think pays for it? The government doesn't. The doctor doesn't.

How dare you pass a law that a vaginal probe has to be stuck in a woman against her will, against her doctor's advice, and she has to pay for it. What legislators think they have the power and control to force government object rape of it's citizens? That is exactly what you are supporting. YOU say a woman can't make a decision about her own body without YOU putting your two cents in by forcing her to have a sonogram. Bull.****.

Most Americans are Pro-Family Planning.

Republicans (*not all, but many in the party now) are dead-set against family planning.

Republicans* are anti-family planning.
Republicans* are anti-individual family rights.
Republicans* are anti-individual freedom over one's own reproductive life.
Republicans* want the POWER and CONTROL to tell women what to do with their own bodies.
Republicans* HATE women having individual freedom.

Republicans are the ones passing laws to control what other people can do regarding their individual families, trying to control what a woman can do with her own body.

It's appalling. It's completely against every tenant of freedom, of individual liberty, this country has stood for.

I've never met anybody who is in favor of abortion. But you nor the government have no right to tell families what to do in the privacy of their own lives. You nor the government have no right to force birthing on any American citizen, any woman or family. Especially in the case of rape, incest, or a damaged unborn child.

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by Riot

Nonsense. Forced sonograms are not FREE. The WOMAN IS FORCED TO PAY FOR IT. Who do you think pays for it? The government doesn't. The doctor doesn't.

How dare you pass a law that a vaginal probe has to be stuck in a woman against her will, against her doctor's advice, and she has to pay for it. What legislators think they have the power and control to force government object rape of it's citizens? That is exactly what you are supporting. YOU say a woman can't make a decision about her own body without YOU putting your two cents in by forcing her to have a sonogram. Bull.****.

Most Americans are Pro-Family Planning.

Republicans (*not all, but many in the party now) are dead-set against family planning.

Republicans* are anti-family planning.
Republicans* are anti-individual family rights.
Republicans* are anti-individual freedom over one's own reproductive life.
Republicans* want the POWER and CONTROL to tell women what to do with their own bodies.
Republicans* HATE women having individual freedom.

Republicans are the ones passing laws to control what other people can do regarding their individual families, trying to control what a woman can do with her own body.

It's appalling. It's completely against every tenant of freedom, of individual liberty, this country has stood for.

I've never met anybody who is in favor of abortion. But you nor the government have no right to tell families what to do in the privacy of their own lives. You nor the government have no right to force birthing on any American citizen, any woman or family. Especially in the case of rape, incest, or a damaged unborn child.

Abortion is murder - period, end of story. And all the handwringing in the world will not change that. And murder of the innocent should never be allowed under the law.

We've covered this before. Nothing has changed. All your biased statements do not further your desired acceptance of abortion.

And if the Republicans fight abortion at every turn - so much the better. Enough. There has been enough fetal extermination since 1973 to last centuries.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by joeydb

Abortion is murder - period, end of story. And all the handwringing in the world will not change that. And murder of the innocent should never be allowed under the law.

We've covered this before. Nothing has changed. All your biased statements do not further your desired acceptance of abortion.

And if the Republicans fight abortion at every turn - so much the better. Enough. There has been enough fetal extermination since 1973 to last centuries.

Make no mistake: I am firmly anti-abortion. Where we differ is that I do not want to give the government unlimited power over individuals to force current legislators personal morality on American citizens. You want government control. I want individual freedom.

[wiphan]

Originally Posted by Riot

Make no mistake: I am firmly anti-abortion. Where we differ is that I do not want to give the government unlimited power over individuals to force current legislators personal morality on American citizens. You want government control. I want individual freedom.

Why then do you support Obamacare? Last I checked supporting Obamacare doesn't involve individual freedom

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by wiphan

Why then do you support Obamacare? Last I checked supporting Obamacare doesn't involve individual freedom

because it's obama care. if it was bush care, she'd be against it. no, that's not really true.

thing is, it's got nothing to do with logic at all. it's illogical to complain if it's knocked down as unconstitutional, but the same people complaining about that ruling are all for other rulings-altho another group would argue that other rulings (such as roe v wade) are incorrect. you know, like gun control. it's constitutionally protected-but suddenly what was once so clear (privacy is a right, freedom of religion is a right) suddenly isn't quite so clear, is it??

bah, yet another type of argument used by both parties and their supporters. each uses the constitution to support their pov, and then tries to show why it shouldn't be used in others.

and those of us who try to apply it across the board....we're genuises or morons, depending on the particular topic and who agrees or disagrees. it's great.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by wiphan

Why then do you support Obamacare? Last I checked supporting Obamacare doesn't involve individual freedom

Actually it does: the mandate, requiring individual personal responsibility for one's health care costs, rather than putting your cost on others, by purchasing your own insurance is a staunchly Republican- and conservative- created idea for the past 20 years.

The mandate = personal responsibility. No freeloading off others.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by joeydb

Abortion is murder - period, end of story. And all the handwringing in the world will not change that. And murder of the innocent should never be allowed under the law.

We've covered this before. Nothing has changed. All your biased statements do not further your desired acceptance of abortion.

And if the Republicans fight abortion at every turn - so much the better. Enough. There has been enough fetal extermination since 1973 to last centuries.

yes, we have covered this before. the bolded above, as i have said before, is your opinion. it's not a fact.
as for republicans, yes, some do fight it at every turn. it's probably one of the many reasons their membership continues to decrease every year. no doubt this issue, and others in which they show that they really aren't interested in smaller govt is why many turn to other candidates. the party of less intrusion is all for intrusion in certain circumstances.
you said they are trying to conserve freedom, yet you're explaining one freedom that should be taken away. don't you see the irony in that?

[ArlJim78]

most republicans are simply anti abortion and would like that their tax dollars don't fund it, very few take the extreme positions that people here are ascribing to them, such as taking away freedoms(some would say freedom to murder). Abortion is trotted out every election cycle, it's used to whip folks into a frenzy, suddenly out of nowhere people are talking about a war on women, the equivalent of the American Taliban, huh? unfortunately it's all a sideshow to distract you from the real damage being done.
the truth is that these social issues are divisive and are not clearly defined by parties. abortion, gay marriage, they both have supporters and detractors in the major parties.

the size and scope of government is the main issue that divides the left and right. the left is only too happy to seek one government solution after another. people on the right simply wonder why when this approach is failing so miserably around the world do people keep pounding the drums for bailouts, new programs, higher taxes (on those other people), increased government spending, new social programs, government takeover of healthcare, etc, etc. please put down the kool aid, dust off your spectacles and take an honest look at what lies ahead. We are on an unsustainable path. doesn't anyone realize what that means? it mean your kids and grandkids will live with a reduced standard of living, that we are done moving forward and now will simply spiral down the drain. these economic shocks that we experienced recently are nothing like what is coming. there is not enough money in the world for us to pay off our obligations over the next 50 years and its our children who are going to be left holding the bag.
this isn't going to go away either, we won't wake up and it will all be gone like a bad dream, time won't heal this wound, it will only make it worse the more time that we continue in this way. we can either do something about it, or we can keep listening to the statists and con men in the government media complex who tell us that our government is wonderful and that they are really taking great care of things for us, when all they are really about is taking care of themselves..

[Riot]

The Hyde Amendment has made it illegal for federal funds to fund abortion for the past 30 years. Zero federal funds are used for abortion.

Republicans can rest assured that no federal funds ever have been, or are used, for abortion.

In spite of that, the facts are that Republicans in Congress and state governments have indeed waged an aggressive and newly renewed war on women's rights over the past two years, even trying to make birth control illegal. Let alone the multiple bills that have been passed this past year legalizing the government requiring object rape of women via vaginal ultrasound penetration, not only against the woman and doctors objection, but requiring the woman to pay for it.

That is nothing other than massive, unprecedented government interference of the individual rights of citizens of this country.

Birth control prevents abortions. A perfect example of a ridiculous war on women with the same Republican party presenting strangely opposing ideas: not only do they want to outlaw abortion that is now legal, but they want to outlaw the birth control that prevents abortions.

The numbers prove an unprecedented current attack on women, and their currently legal rights. To pretend otherwise is absurd. If one is a woman, this is no "sideshow of distraction". It is the reality of trying to keep women home and pregnant.

It is true that demographic changes affect this struggle. But demographic changes did not cause the struggle, nor do they lie at its roots. It is also true, I think, that the views represented by the likes of Rick Santorum are fading, and that his screams against the changes he cannot prevent are like a death rattle.

That doesn't mean they can't do damage, doesn't mean they can't temporarily prevail. But they know their time is passing and that the next generation will not react with shock to the changes that shock Santorum, because they will not experience them as changes, because they will have gotten used to them, because they grew up with them.

There may be as many young women, including Catholic women, as ever who regard themselves as conservative. But nearly all of them use birth control, before as well as during marriage. Gays will be accepted, just as a stroll through the schools of rural Georgia or the streets of Jackson, Miss. today does not reveal what went on there in 1963.

Problems will not end, the competition among values will not end, but the vision of life that Rick Santorum clings to will end, or diminish to a point where it is not politically viable.

Chait is right that the Republican right wing knows this; he is right that they see this as their last shot (it may not be; I wouldn't celebrate victory quite yet); he is right that they are responding with a strategy that will probably end in hastening their political demise (having cultivated that fundamentalist reaction for decades, the Republican Party has backed itself into a corner); and he is right that demographics is affecting the outcome, and will do so over the next decade. But to understand what is happening politically, I think one has to understand that this is about more than demographics: it is about fundamental social change and the reaction to it.

And the fundamental changes at stake and at issue are mostly about rights, the rights won by submerged and subordinate groups roughly between 1954 and 1973, and the privileges and powers lost or limited, or perceived to be lost, by those who benefited, however unjustly, from the subordination of others.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

most republicans are simply anti abortion and would like that their tax dollars don't fund it, very few take the extreme positions that people here are ascribing to them, such as taking away freedoms(some would say freedom to murder). Abortion is trotted out every election cycle, it's used to whip folks into a frenzy, suddenly out of nowhere people are talking about a war on women, the equivalent of the American Taliban, huh? unfortunately it's all a sideshow to distract you from the real damage being done.
the truth is that these social issues are divisive and are not clearly defined by parties. abortion, gay marriage, they both have supporters and detractors in the major parties.

the size and scope of government is the main issue that divides the left and right. the left is only too happy to seek one government solution after another. people on the right simply wonder why when this approach is failing so miserably around the world do people keep pounding the drums for bailouts, new programs, higher taxes (on those other people), increased government spending, new social programs, government takeover of healthcare, etc, etc. please put down the kool aid, dust off your spectacles and take an honest look at what lies ahead. We are on an unsustainable path. doesn't anyone realize what that means? it mean your kids and grandkids will live with a reduced standard of living, that we are done moving forward and now will simply spiral down the drain. these economic shocks that we experienced recently are nothing like what is coming. there is not enough money in the world for us to pay off our obligations over the next 50 years and its our children who are going to be left holding the bag.
this isn't going to go away either, we won't wake up and it will all be gone like a bad dream, time won't heal this wound, it will only make it worse the more time that we continue in this way. we can either do something about it, or we can keep listening to the statists and con men in the government media complex who tell us that our government is wonderful and that they are really taking great care of things for us, when all they are really about is taking care of themselves..

It's fascinating to me that during the 8 years Bush was running 2 unfunded wars, slashing taxes and forcing through a major new entitlement (Medicare Part D) not a peep was heard from conservatives. But come the inauguration of Obama, suddenly the deficit is the major threat to America's future. And the only way to deal with it, of course, is to slash programs for the poor and middle class. Because shut up, that's why.

Come on, now. Your guy, Cheney, said, and I quote, "Reagan proved that deficits don't matter."

Unless you were posting lots of screeds here against runaway Republican spending during the years 2000-2008. You may have; I don't remember. Please post links to those threads if you did.

Modern conservatism can be summed up in, "If libruls are fer it, we're agin' it!"

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by Riot

Nonsense. Forced sonograms are not FREE. The WOMAN IS FORCED TO PAY FOR IT. Who do you think pays for it? The government doesn't. The doctor doesn't.

How dare you pass a law that a vaginal probe has to be stuck in a woman against her will, against her doctor's advice, and she has to pay for it. What legislators think they have the power and control to force government object rape of it's citizens? That is exactly what you are supporting. YOU say a woman can't make a decision about her own body without YOU putting your two cents in by forcing her to have a sonogram. Bull.****.

Most Americans are Pro-Family Planning.

Republicans (*not all, but many in the party now) are dead-set against family planning.

Republicans* are anti-family planning.
Republicans* are anti-individual family rights.
Republicans* are anti-individual freedom over one's own reproductive life.
Republicans* want the POWER and CONTROL to tell women what to do with their own bodies.
Republicans* HATE women having individual freedom.

Republicans are the ones passing laws to control what other people can do regarding their individual families, trying to control what a woman can do with her own body.

It's appalling. It's completely against every tenant of freedom, of individual liberty, this country has stood for.

I've never met anybody who is in favor of abortion. But you nor the government have no right to tell families what to do in the privacy of their own lives. You nor the government have no right to force birthing on any American citizen, any woman or family. Especially in the case of rape, incest, or a damaged unborn child.

While we have never met, I am in favor of abortion. Too many unwanted kids out there as it is. I am also against fertility treatments for the same reason.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

While we have never met, I am in favor of abortion. Too many unwanted kids out there as it is. I am also against fertility treatments for the same reason.

i think for many it's not that they're necessarily in favor of abortion or want it performed. however, for many, they don't feel it's their right to tell others what to do. some people don't want to be told either, but they feel perfectly ok in foisting their opinon on others in return!
those against abortion don't have to support it, don't have to ever get one. but they have no right pushing that set of beliefs (not facts even if they want to say it's a fact as to when life begins ,etc) onto other people. besides, what affect does it have on you, or me, or anyone else if a woman makes that choice? nothing.
however, if some had the ability to change the rules, that would have an adverse affect on many others who no longer have the ability to decide for themselves.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

While we have never met, I am in favor of abortion. Too many unwanted kids out there as it is. I am also against fertility treatments for the same reason.

I am personally against abortion. But I don't think it's my place, or big government's place, to tell you what to do regarding your family planning. That's between you and your doctor.

Yes, I would much rather a woman have an abortion, then later welcome a child into her life when she can take good care of it.

The government forcing women to birth the babies conceived out of rape or incest, or carry defective babies to term, is just sick torture.

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by Riot

I am personally against abortion. But I don't think it's my place, or big government's place, to tell you what to do regarding your family planning. That's between you and your doctor.

Yes, I would much rather a woman have an abortion, then later welcome a child into her life when she can take good care of it.

The government forcing women to birth the babies conceived out of rape or incest, or carry defective babies to term, is just sick torture.

I am against the federal government forcing anyone to do anything other than pay a reasonable tax to support infrastructure, military defense and a system of currency.
Let the states make a few laws and regulations and compete for the citizens and businesses that are looking for homes. It wasn't just the landscape that moved me to Colorado.

[dellinger63]

What do you suppose a couple who weigh a combined 800lbs because they've done nothing but eat, with pre-existing conditions of diabetes, high blood pressure and heart trouble, each needing knee replacements will be quoted on a policy?

What amount will they be supplemented with?

Will the taxpayer ultimately paying for their insurance receive preferential treatment or will they be treated equal to the couple they're paying for?

Obamacare is nothing but a guise for socialized healthcare. Where individuals will no longer be charged based on individual needs but rather the needs of others even if the need others may have was self induced.

Any sense of equality be damned as you will no longer pay based on individual health/risk but rather how healthy your bank account is.

Just another reward given out for bad behavior, similar to welfare, section 8 housing and food stamps. Instead of encouraging women to wait till marriage to have babies, we pay them to have babies before marriage and the more babies the more .

[jms62]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

I am against the federal government forcing anyone to do anything other than pay a reasonable tax to support infrastructure, military defense and a system of currency.
Let the states make a few laws and regulations and compete for the citizens and businesses that are looking for homes. It wasn't just the landscape that moved me to Colorado.

How about auto insurance?

So if you don't want the government to mandate insurance then I assume you are good with paying astronmical rates for yours as Hospitals pass the cost of all those that don't have insurance but show up to the Emergency room that they have to treat.