Zenyatta assigned 129 pounds for Vanity

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

I think to some degree you're knocking Best Pal for continuing to run way beyond his prime.

On paper, he was one of the most accomplished 2yos of recent memory and he was definitely in a zone as a 4yo in an abbreviated season.

That said, I don't think he should be in the HOF if some of the others you mentioned aren't.

No I am knocking him because he just wasnt that good. He was durable and consistent but hardly great. he never won a single eclipe award despite racing during a down period. Perhaps you could have made a case that he could have been voted 2 year old champion but even back then the BC trumped most of the rest of the 2 yo races.

Eclipse winners years that he ran
2 yo -Fly So free
3 yo -Hansel
Older male (4) -Pleasant Tap
Older male (5) - Bertrando
Older male (6) - The Wicked North
Older male (7) - Cigar

Cigar notwithstanding, he never had a good enough single season to win a national award, losing to some of the worst winners since the awards were instituted in 1971. He was elected because of his longevity, not in spite of it.

The other problem that we have is that the voters are generally clueless as a group, with few having much of a grasp of the sports history prior to Cigar.

[Revidere]

QUOTE=Cannon Shell;655154]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fO0h4oyb6WI

130lbs

beating Educated Risk, Dispute and You'd be Surprised

You'd be Surprised 120
Trainer:Mack Miller
Owner: Rokeby Stable
Winnings: 23 Starts: 10 - 8 - 1, $606,007

At 4: WON Top Flight H. (G1), John A. Morris H. (G1), Gallorette H. (G3), 2ND: Capital Holding Mile S.; 3RD Hempstead H. (G1)
At 5 - WON New York H.(G2), 2ND: John A. Morris H. (G1), Saratoga Breeders' Cup H., Hempstead H. (G1)

Educated Risk 114
Owner: Ogden Mills Phipps
Trainer: Shug Mcgaughey
Winnings: 23 Starts: 11 - 6 - 4, $1,613,717

At 2: Won Frizette S.(G1), 2nd Breeders' Cup Juvenile Fillies S.(G1), Matron S.(G1)
At 3: 2nd Acorn S.(G1), 3rd Test S.(G1), Prioress S.(G2)
At 4: Won Top Flight H.(G1), Churchill Downs Breeders' Cup (G2), Virginia H.(G3), 2nd Beldame S.(G1), Rampart H.(G2), 3rd Ruffian H.(G1)
At 5: Won Rampart H.(G2), Shirley Jones H.(G3).

Dispute 117
Owner: Ogden Mills Phipps
Trainer: Shug McGaughey
Winnings: 19 Starts: 9 - 4 - 4, $1,106,906

1st: Kentucky Oaks (G1,CD,9F), Beldame (G1,Bel,9F), Gazelle (G1,Bel,9F), Spinster (G1,Kee,9F), Bonnie Miss (G2,8.5F,GP)
2nd: Astarita S., Ruffian H. (2x), Mother Goose S.
3rd: Nijana S., Bed o'Roses H., John A. Morris H.
4th: Breeders' Cup Distaff

Link River 110
Owner: Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid al Maktoum
Trainer: Bill Mott
Winnings: 14 Starts: 6 - 2 - 0, $273,243

At 4: Won John A. Morris H. (G1); 2nd Go For Wand S. (G1)[/quote]

[dagolfer33]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Joey belle

"Joey" wasn't even close to being the worst thing they were calling him at Miss. St. when he went up in the stands after some people.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dagolfer33

"Joey" wasn't even close to being the worst thing they were calling him at Miss. St. when he went up in the stands after some people.

He was a gem

[KirisClown]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

130lbs

beating Educated Risk, Dispute and You'd be Surprised

Defeating those horses while carrying 130lbs was a real achievement.. I've always thought of it as the top moment in her career.. It's a shame the BC wasnt at Belmont in 94.. it would have been a heck of a race between her and Heavenly Prize..

[CSC]

9 lbs to St. Trinians...I have a healthy respect for whomever Mitchell is throwing out there at the moment. As much as the Rachelites will try to make of it, if St. Trinians runs her A race, this is a bigger test than what Rachel has faced this year. 2010

Spinning already.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

Spinning already.

I know ST is not Zardana, but she is right there at the top of the division isn't she? No worries Zenyatta will be fine.

Originally Posted by CSC

Well she is right there at the top of the division isn't she? No worries Zenyatta will be fine.

The Special Olympics Division? Don't be scared. I know it's possible to take after the connections but man up, dude.

[Sightseek]

Over/under on the number of Zenyatta bobbleheads Smooth Operator comes home with?

[Port Conway Lane]

Originally Posted by CSC

9 lbs to St. Trinians...I have a healthy respect for whomever Mitchell is throwing out there at the moment. As much as the Rachelites will try to make of it, if St. Trinians runs her A race, this is a bigger test than what Rachel has faced this year. 2010

Close call but I couldn't be so sure. Unrivaled Belle is an improving filly and never got the credit she deserved in defeating RA.

[NTamm1215]

So St. Trinians is better than Unrivaled Belle because the former beat Life Is Sweet?

It's one thing to say that Zenyatta winning this race with all that weight would be a huge accomplishment, it's quite another to say that St. Trinians is better than Unrivaled Belle.

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me why Zenyatta is only giving St. Trinians 9 lbs and why she's carrying the exact same thing she was last year in this race.

NT

[CSC]

Originally Posted by Port Conway Lane

Close call but I couldn't be so sure. Unrivaled Belle is an improving filly and never got the credit she deserved in defeating RA.

Looking back UB came fresh off a gr.3 win at GP into the La Troienne, she was a distant 3rd choice in that race to Zardana and Rachel. It's an easy thing to say now she is good...but at the time not many took her seriously to win that race.

ST was a Gr.2 winner that was riding an unbeaten streak on AW in NA prior to the Big Cap. Infact if one looks at her Euro record on AW, it was no wonder why she was bet like iron in the Big Cap.

I differ, in my opinion, ST is the superior challenge of the 2 at this stage. Let's see how UB handles her new found fame, when she races against tougher as the season goes on. In addition, a vital point is Zenyatta is conceding 9 lbs to a gr.2 winner, something Rachel to this point hasn't done.

[CSC]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

So St. Trinians is better than Unrivaled Belle because the former beat Life Is Sweet?

It's one thing to say that Zenyatta winning this race with all that weight would be a huge accomplishment, it's quite another to say that St. Trinians is better than Unrivaled Belle.

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me why Zenyatta is only giving St. Trinians 9 lbs and why she's carrying the exact same thing she was last year in this race.

NT

What is it about St. Trinians that is so awful in your opinion? When the Apple Blossom was announced earlier this year, some were even saying she was the 3rd most interesting filly if she would have ran in that race. Unrivaled Belle has won one race, the same reaction occured when Zardana beat Rachel. Let's keep that in mind, she may turn out to be a pretty special filly, but at the moment let's reign back the superlatives. St. Trinians has atleast ran some big races in So Cal before her lacklustre Big Cap, I think anyone can observe she is not a filly that is chopped liver caliber coming into The Vanity, even the anti-Zenyatta advocates should recognize this.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by CSC

What is it about St. Trinians that is so awful in your opinion? When the Apple Blossom was announced earlier this year, some were even saying she was the 3rd most interesting filly if she would have ran in that race. Unrivaled Belle has won one race, the same reaction occured when Zardana beat Rachel. Let's keep that in mind, she may turn out to be a pretty special filly, but at the moment let's reign back the superlatives. St. Trinians has atleast ran some big races in So Cal before her lacklustre Big Cap, I think anyone can observe she is not a filly that is chopped liver caliber coming into The Vanity, even the anti-Zenyatta advocates should recognize this.

On paper, a case can be made that St. Trinians is the better (when taken into account that she runs on AW and the Vanity is run on AW), after all, Zardana was nearly 5 lengths behind her in the Santa Maria prior to upsetting Rachel Alexandra (though here you would need to ignore surface issues).

Nonetheless, there is no longer any guarantee that St. Trinians is still in that peak form she was in late last year and early this year. Its been 3 months since the Big Cap debacle (she should have been in the Santa Margarita--not the Apple Blossom) and who's to say she's the same horse after getting pummeled?

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by CSC

What is it about St. Trinians that is so awful in your opinion? When the Apple Blossom was announced earlier this year, some were even saying she was the 3rd most interesting filly if she would have ran in that race. Unrivaled Belle has won one race, the same reaction occured when Zardana beat Rachel. Let's keep that in mind, she may turn out to be a pretty special filly, but at the moment let's reign back the superlatives. St. Trinians has atleast ran some big races in So Cal before her lacklustre Big Cap, I think anyone can observe she is not a filly that is chopped liver caliber coming into The Vanity, even the anti-Zenyatta advocates should recognize this.

Go look at Unrivaled Belle's PPs. Then you'll have your facts straight. Click here: http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbH...0100612-494159

She won the Rampart on Fla Derby day before winning the La Troienne and came into the latter with a record of 5: 4-0-1 on conventional dirt with the only blemish being a 2nd place finish in the Gazelle. I know you're desperate to pound away at any horse who beat Rachel, but Unrivaled Belle was as accomplished coming into the La Troienne, if not more, than St. Trinians is coming into the Vanity.

Where did I say anything about St. Trinians being terrible? All I said was that a horse of Zenyatta's caliber should give ST at least 15 lbs in my opinion. You're talking about a Grade II and listed stakes winner and a 16x winner, BC Classic winner, 2x GI winner in 2010, and CSC Horse of the Year here. Come on, 9 lbs?

NT

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me why Zenyatta is only giving St. Trinians 9 lbs and why she's carrying the exact same thing she was last year in this race.

NT

Because they were afraid hitting the magical number of 130 or higher would cause Zenyatta's connections to tell them to go jump. They want her in the race, ergo she gets 129. They couldn't be absolutely ridiculous and give her less than before--she's won the BCC since. They also might've been concerned that they'd have to give ST and the others even less unless they had Z up high enough. A little balancing act.

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

So St. Trinians is better than Unrivaled Belle because the former beat Life Is Sweet?

It's one thing to say that Zenyatta winning this race with all that weight would be a huge accomplishment, it's quite another to say that St. Trinians is better than Unrivaled Belle.

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me why Zenyatta is only giving St. Trinians 9 lbs and why she's carrying the exact same thing she was last year in this race.

NT

This is rhetorical right, the reason?

[CSC]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Nonetheless, there is no longer any guarantee that St. Trinians is still in that peak form she was in late last year and early this year. Its been 3 months since the Big Cap debacle (she should have been in the Santa Margarita--not the Apple Blossom) and who's to say she's the same horse after getting pummeled?

With the rate Mitchell is sending out winners, I would form an educated guess she will run back to form. On cushion, I would rate her second to only Zenyatta at the moment in the distaff division. As stated I have a healthy respect for her, I'm not sure what her odds will be, but even if you a fan of Zenyatta, if the spread is enough with the projected small field, any objective bettor would atleast have to entertain the thought she can possibly pull off the upset. Though as is always the case in her career Zenyatta may have a thing to say about that.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

This is rhetorical right, the reason?

Are you speaking in some kind of code? I don't know what you're talking about.

NT