When "Neighborhood Watch" Gets Out of Hand

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i read he wasn't even a member of neighborhood watch. then there's the 911 operator telling him not to follow martin. and it's certainly not nw rules to carry a gun, or confront a person. other than all that, you're right.

A lot of people carry guns in Florida. It is very easy to get a permit to carry a concealed weapon in Florida. It was totally legal for Zimmerman to be carrying that gun. If you have a concealed weapons' permit and you do neighborhood watch, I don't think it would make much sense to leave your gun at home.

I guess Zimmerman got out of his car and started following Trayvon on foot after Trayvon cut down a grass path that went between houses. Zimmerman obviously couldn't drive on the grass path. Most people would have probably given up the chase at this point but Zimmerman was obviously a little overzealous.

We know that at some point Zimmerman and Trayvon came face to face and they had some words. Trayvon supposedly asked Zimmerman why he was following him. Zimmerman supposedly asked Trayvon what he was doing there. We don't know what else, if anything was said after that.

According to Zimmerman, at some point he walked away and was heading back to his car. If that is the case, then the confrontation was over at that point. If Trayvon attacked him while he is walking back to his car, after the verbal confrontation is over, then I think Trayvon was the aggressor. Some of you have argued that Zimmerman was the aggressor, which he may have been at the beginning. But after he walks away and is heading back to his car, neither man is a threat to the other. Trayvon has no justification to attack him at this point and I think Zimmemran is totally justified in defending himself.

If this in fact is how things went down, I don't think prosecutors have much of a case. Prosecutors will need to come up with some evidence that shows that things did not go down like this.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I guess Zimmerman got out of his car and started following Trayvon on foot after Trayvon cut down a grass path that went between houses. Zimmerman obviously couldn't drive on the grass path. Most people would have probably given up the chase at this point but Zimmerman was obviously a little overzealous.

It's not effing against the law to be walking while black. It's not against the law to walk down a grass path between houses. Wearing a hoodie and being black doesn't make you "acting suspicious" or "on drugs" or "hand in his waistband, I don't know what his deal is".

There was NOTHING the kid did to cause Zimmerman to "follow him" other than his color and daring to exist. What the hell was Zimmerman "chasing"?

Then Zimmerman killed an innocent kid. He was a predator. He pursued the kid. Video of Zimmerman at the police station shows no dirt on his clothes, no grass stains, no blood stains, no injuries. He's a ****ing liar, and he needs to be brought to justice. You want history? Zimmerman following and harassing other people who live in that subdivision. Zimmerman carrying a gun. Zimmerman calling police over 40 times for "stuff". Zimmerman fired from a security job for his temper. Zimmerman with RO from ex fiance. He looks like a regular dangerous, stupid police wannabe and his ego and sheer stupidity killed a 17-year-old kid.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Riot

It's not effing against the law to be walking while black. It's not against the law to walk down a grass path between houses. Wearing a hoodie and being black doesn't make you "acting suspicious" or "on drugs" or "hand in his waistband, I don't know what his deal is".

There was NOTHING the kid did to cause Zimmerman to "follow him" other than his color and daring to exist. What the hell was Zimmerman "chasing"?

Then Zimmerman killed an innocent kid. He was a predator. He pursued the kid. Video of Zimmerman at the police station shows no dirt on his clothes, no grass stains, no blood stains, no injuries. He's a ****ing liar, and he needs to be brought to justice.

There is no evidence that Trayvon's race had anything to do with it. Could his race have had something to do with it? It is possible but there is no evidence of it. To prove a case, you need evidence. You can't just say I have a strong feeling that he followed him because of his race. You need evidence.

I can see how you could suspect that race could have been an issue. But I have no idea how you can "conclude" that race was an issue. Let's pretend that Trayvon was Latino. Are you saying that Zimmerman would not have followed him? If that is what you are saying, what evidence do you have to support that? My guess is that Zimmerman would have followed any young man that was a stranger in the neighborhood.

On the video, I think you could clearly see that Zimmerman had a gash on the back of his head. There are several witnesses that said he had a bloody nose. Do you think all those people were lying? Zimmerman was treated for his injuries at the scene. The fact that you couldn't see blood on him in the video, after he had been cleaned up at the scene, is hardly proof that there was no altercation.

I'm not quite sure what you are saying? Are you saying that you don't think there was a physical altercation? Assuming there was a physical altercation, I don't think there is anyone who said it was a 20 minute fight. The fight probably lasted 10 seconds. I wouldn't expect someone who got punched for a few seconds to look like someone who went 10 rounds in a boxing match.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

There is no evidence that Trayvon's race had anything to do with it.

Actually yeah, there is: the only thing Zimmerman knew about this kid, reported to the police, was that he was black and he "didn't know what his deal was". Zimmerman called in a kid walking alone a street simply because he was black. The kid was doing nothing but walking.

On the video, I think you could clearly see that Zimmerman had a gash on the back of his head.

No. Not at all. There is zero evidence of any "gash" on his head. There is zero evidence of blood on the back of the shirt (head "gash") or the front of the shirt ("broken nose"), along with zero dirt or grass stains. Witnesses said he was wearing this shirt during his fight with Treyvon.

Even tiny head lacerations bleed like crazy, especially when you are fighting, and your adrenaline and blood pressure are sky high. Impossible for him to have anything other than a bruise and a completely minor skin abrasion with no blood - and virtually impossible to have any scalp skin break at all, ignored during a fight, without some blood. Let alone zero blood from a "broken nose".

There are several witnesses that said he had a bloody nose. Do you think all those people were lying?

There are witnesses the police ignored that said the opposite. Right now on the video there is zero visible evidence of swelling, injury, blood on his face, blood on the back of his clothes, blood on his sleeve. Amazing, if his nose was broken in the front, and his head "gashed" in the back. The immaculate broken nose?

Zimmerman was treated for his injuries at the scene. The fact that you couldn't see blood on him in the video, after he had been cleaned up at the scene, is hardly proof that there was no altercation.

He was not treated by ambulance personnel, according to the police he was "treated in the back of the squad car". Really? We're supposed to believe that? That no help was called for this crime "victim's" gash and broken nose? Sorry. He didn't change clothes. There is no blood on his clothes. And as a former paramedic, I'll tell you that we don't wash people off. And in a murder, the police wouldn't let us eliminate any blood evidence anyway.

I'm not quite sure what you are saying? Are you saying that you don't think there was a physical altercation?

I'm saying that the facts leaked by the police don't match with the dog and pony show Zimmerman's brother is putting out to the press. The tapes make it clear there were nearly a minute of a person screaming for help, stilled by a gunshot. This police department has a history of racial incompetence and problems in the community. The current police chief was brought in to fix it. Now he's on leave, too.

The problem isn't whether Zimmerman was justified in murdering this child. The problem is this appalling police department of incompetents (yes, they have a record of racial/community problems). The problem is that a murdered kid was allowed to sit in the morgue for three days as a "John Doe", when they had a cell phone and neighborhood they could have canvassed. Took them three days to get that warrant to unlock a locked cell phone? That was dropped in a scuffle and possibly broken? The lead investigator wants an arrest, but he's told not to?

Nothing happened with this case for WEEKS, until the family of the murdered kid went to their Congresswoman. Just another dead black kid, no charges, nothing to see here.

The fight probably lasted 10 seconds.

According to the various 9-11 calls released by the PD, that have the fight and the murder (the shots) in the background, the "fight" lasted at least 45 seconds before a gunshot stills the cries for help.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Riot

Actually yeah, there is: the only thing Zimmerman knew about this kid, reported to the police, was that he was black and he "didn't know what his deal was". Zimmerman called in a kid walking alone a street simply because he was black. The kid was doing nothing but walking.



No. Not at all. There is zero evidence of any "gash" on his head. There is zero evidence of blood on the back of the shirt (head "gash") or the front of the shirt ("broken nose"), along with zero dirt or grass stains. Witnesses said he was wearing this shirt during his fight with Treyvon.

Even tiny head lacerations bleed like crazy, especially when your are fighting, and your adrenaline and blood pressure are going. Impossible for him to have anything other than a bruise and a completely minor skin abrasion with no blood - and virtually impossible to have any scalp skin break without some blood. Let alone zero blood from a "broken nose".



There are witnesses the police ignored that said the opposite. Right now on the video there is zero visible evidence of swelling, injury, blood on his face, blood on the back of his clothes, blood on his sleeve. Amazing, if his nose was broken in the front, and his head "gashed" in the back. The immaculate broken nose?



Sorry. He didn't change clothes. There is no blood on his clothes. And as a former paramedic, I'll tell you that we don't wash people off. And in a murder, the police wouldn't let us eliminate any blood evidence anyway.



I'm saying that the facts leaked by the police don't match with the dog and pony show Zimmerman's brother is putting out to the press. This police department has a history of racial incompetence and problems in the community. The current police chief was brought in to fix it. Now he's on leave, too.



According to the various 9-11 calls released by the PD, that have the fight and the murder (the shots) in the background, the "fight" lasted at least 45 seconds before a gunshot stills the cries for help.

I think you can clearly see the gash on the back of his head. You have to watch the video very carefully but when he gets at a certain angle, it is clearly visible.

If Trayvon would have been a Latino male, are you saying that Zimmerman would not have followed him? If that is what you are saying, what do you base that on?

Here is a still photo of the gash on Zimmerman's head:
http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/29/po...w-head-injury/

We will see what ends up happening. There is certainly a lot of pressure on the prosecutor to file charges. Now that the case is under a microscope, are you confident that a thorough investigation will be done?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I think you can clearly see the gash on the back of his head. You have to watch the video very carefully but when he gets at a certain angle, it is clearly visible.

If Trayvon would have been a Latino male, are you saying that Zimmerman would not have followed him? If that is what you are saying, what do you base that on?

Here is a still photo of the gash on Zimmerman's head:
http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/29/po...w-head-injury/

We will see what ends up happening. There is certainly a lot of pressure on the prosecutor to file charges. Now that the case is under a microscope, are you confident that a thorough investigation will be done?

Rupert, I'm saying that, if my teenaged son left to walk to the store and back during a televised basketball halftime, and never came home, and three days later I found out he was murdered, and there was very little "police investigation" at all into why my child was dead - I'd be calling my Congresswoman, too.

I've said multiple times in this thread: if they had charged Zimmerman with anything - even unlawful discharge of a weapon - at least there may have been some investigation, some retention of evidence, and trying the case in public could have been halted.

The police, this department with a long history of racial profiling and community unrest, and incompetence, decided within an hour or so no charges at all need be filed, against the advice of the lead investigator. A seventeen-year-old kid is dead, and the police said, "yeah, well, it's okay, it was self-defense, carry on everyone". That's beyond absurd incompetence.

When a pedestrian walks across the 4-lane New Circle Road in Lexington, and gets hit and killed by a motorist (sadly happens a couple times a year), the motorist is given a breathalyzer, report taken, scene forensics, etc. done. The cops just don't say, "Oh, you say didn't see him in the rain? Okay. We believe you", and let it go after an hour or two. Even if zero charges are filed against the driver as they couldn't avoid it. The investigation leads to the truth. A thorough investigation of why a person is suddenly dead at the hand of another.

There was little to no apparent investigation of the murder of this teenaged boy.

BTW: re the Daily Caller "enhanced" video: an alleged "possible" two-inch skull laceration produced no blood on the shirt witnesses said he was wearing at the scene? No. I'm not buying that, unless police photos taken at the time show one bloody mess on the back of his collar and shirt.

Any skull laceration, even tiny, produces copious amounts of blood - ask the parent of any two-year-old. And a lac that large calls for immediate sutures in the ER. That was never done. If it (what the DC alleges possibly could be a strange vertical cut along the top of the scalp) is true, it must have left a huge visible bumpy scar, having been left to heal without any wound closure.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Riot

Rupert, I'm saying that, if my teenaged son left to walk to the store and back during a televised basketball halftime, and never came home, and three days later I found out he was murdered, and there was very little "police investigation" at all into why my child was dead - I'd be calling my Congresswoman, too.

I've said multiple times in this thread: if they had charged Zimmerman with anything - even unlawful discharge of a weapon - at least there may have been some investigation, some retention of evidence, and trying the case in public could have been halted.

The police, this department with a long history of racial profiling and community unrest, and incompetence, decided within an hour or so no charges at all need be filed, against the advice of the lead investigator. A seventeen-year-old kid is dead, and the police said, "yeah, well, it's okay, it was self-defense, carry on everyone". That's beyond absurd incompetence.

When a pedestrian walks across the 4-lane New Circle Road in Lexington, and gets hit and killed by a motorist (sadly happens a couple times a year), the motorist is given a breathalyzer, report taken, scene forensics, etc. done. The cops just don't say, "Oh, you say didn't see him in the rain? Okay. We believe you", and let it go after an hour or two. Even if zero charges are filed against the driver as they couldn't avoid it. The investigation leads to the truth. A thorough investigation of why a person is suddenly dead at the hand of another.

There was little to no apparent investigation of the murder of this teenaged boy.

BTW: re the Daily Caller "enhanced" video: an alleged "possible" two-inch skull laceration produced no blood on the shirt witnesses said he was wearing at the scene? No. I'm not buying that, unless police photos taken at the time show one bloody mess on the back of his collar and shirt.

Any skull laceration, even tiny, produces copious amounts of blood - ask the parent of any two-year-old. And a lac that large calls for immediate sutures in the ER. That was never done. If it (what the DC alleges possibly could be a strange vertical cut along the top of the scalp) is true, it must have left a huge visible bumpy scar, having been left to heal without any wound closure.

I agree with you. I think there should be a thorough investigation. But I don't think people should be convicting this guy before there is a thorough investigation.

I think you bring up good points about no blood being visible on his shirt. I can't explain why there is no blood visible on his shirt. But I also can't explain why numerous witnesses said his nose was broken and bloody. I guess it's possible that they were all lying. It will be interesting to see what the medical report says and what the paramedics say. Some people might discount the medical report and claim that Zimmerman inflicted the injuries on himself before he went to the doctor (or hospital or wherever he got treated) the next day. But I think it will be hard to discount the testimony of the paramedics.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

A lot of people carry guns in Florida. It is very easy to get a permit to carry a concealed weapon in Florida. It was totally legal for Zimmerman to be carrying that gun. If you have a concealed weapons' permit and you do neighborhood watch, I don't think it would make much sense to leave your gun at home.

I guess Zimmerman got out of his car and started following Trayvon on foot after Trayvon cut down a grass path that went between houses. Zimmerman obviously couldn't drive on the grass path. Most people would have probably given up the chase at this point but Zimmerman was obviously a little overzealous.

We know that at some point Zimmerman and Trayvon came face to face and they had some words. Trayvon supposedly asked Zimmerman why he was following him. Zimmerman supposedly asked Trayvon what he was doing there. We don't know what else, if anything was said after that.

According to Zimmerman, at some point he walked away and was heading back to his car. If that is the case, then the confrontation was over at that point. If Trayvon attacked him while he is walking back to his car, after the verbal confrontation is over, then I think Trayvon was the aggressor. Some of you have argued that Zimmerman was the aggressor, which he may have been at the beginning. But after he walks away and is heading back to his car, neither man is a threat to the other. Trayvon has no justification to attack him at this point and I think Zimmemran is totally justified in defending himself.

If this in fact is how things went down, I don't think prosecutors have much of a case. Prosecutors will need to come up with some evidence that shows that things did not go down like this.

rupe, i appreciate your detailed assessment but all of the above is not something new to me. however, it seems you completely ignored the part where i said 'he was NOT a member of neighborhood watch. had he been, perhaps he'd have known they don't want their members carrying guns. i guess you also ignored the part where the 911 operator told zimmerman not to confront trayvon.
i've also seen where there is no indication of there having been a scuffle, which belies your post.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Danzig

rupe, i appreciate your detailed assessment but all of the above is not something new to me. however, it seems you completely ignored the part where i said 'he was NOT a member of neighborhood watch. had he been, perhaps he'd have known they don't want their members carrying guns. i guess you also ignored the part where the 911 operator told zimmerman not to confront trayvon.
i've also seen where there is no indication of there having been a scuffle, which belies your post.

There are 2 or 3 published 9-11 tapes of callers reporting a man down on the ground, screaming for help, and then a shot that stills the screams The scuffle (if it lasted during the screaming) is at least 45 (correction, 41) seconds long, not including the time it was happening before people telephoned it in as it was happening. ABC News must have a source, as they have the most information available from the PD (the tapes, etc)

Here's the tape of the 41 seconds of screaming for help, with the gunshot stilling the screams. Warning if you have triggers or PTSD. It's graphic. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj4RHJ0taoc

Here's the MSMBC color video of Zimmerman at the police station in handcuffs. You can clearly see, in a couple places, as Zimmerman has very close hair, there is no 2-inch skull laceration on the top of his head as alleged by Daily Caller. And these clothes have zero blood or grass on them (either front of shirt or back) and they are the clothes described by witnesses that Zimmerman was wearing at the time

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20...artin-shooting

You know what I think happened? Zimmerman grabbed the kid, and was trying to restrain him for the police (hence the screaming for help by Trayvon, as a stranger grabbed him), he took out his gun from his waist holster to threaten the kid, and it accidentally went off and shot the kid dead on in the chest (yeah, they say it was a front entry wound).

Mortitian also says zero evidence of fight or wounds on Trayvon's body.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Riot

There are 2 or 3 published 9-11 tapes of callers reporting a man down on the ground, screaming for help, and then a shot that stills the screams The scuffle (if it lasted during the screaming) is at least 45 (correction, 41) seconds long, not including the time it was happening before people telephoned it in as it was happening. ABC News must have a source, as they have the most information available from the PD (the tapes, etc)

Here's the tape of the 41 seconds of screaming for help, with the gunshot stilling the screams. Warning if you have triggers or PTSD. It's graphic. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj4RHJ0taoc

Here's the MSMBC color video of Zimmerman at the police station in handcuffs. You can clearly see, in a couple places, as Zimmerman has very close hair, there is no 2-inch skull laceration on the top of his head as alleged by Daily Caller. And these clothes have zero blood or grass on them (either front of shirt or back) and they are the clothes described by witnesses that Zimmerman was wearing at the time

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20...artin-shooting

You know what I think happened? Zimmerman grabbed the kid, and was trying to restrain him for the police (hence the screaming for help by Trayvon, as a stranger grabbed him), he took out his gun from his waist holster to threaten the kid, and it accidentally went off and shot the kid dead on in the chest (yeah, they say it was a front entry wound).

Mortitian also says zero evidence of fight or wounds on Trayvon's body.

I disagree with you about the video. I think right at :41 seconds on the video, you can see the mark on the back of his head. Before I even read the dailycaller article and saw the still picture, I saw it on the video.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Now that we have the state attorney general, FBI, and the Justice Department involved, are you guys confident that there will be a thorough investigation?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Now that we have the state attorney general, FBI, and the Justice Department involved, are you guys confident that there will be a thorough investigation?

Well, the FBI & Justice only prosecutes a hate crime, to my knowledge. And I thought Justice was also looking at performance of that PD overall due to their past record?

But they have a special prosecutor locally now, she has a great rep. If she says she's done a thorough investigation, and no charges should be brought, I'm good with that. Grand Jury to meet the 10th, but I think she can go ahead on her own before if she wanted.

[GenuineRisk]

Now three experts in voice recognition are saying they are certain the screams on the 911 calls are not Zimmerman's:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...0,250481.story

Also, a second ambulance was originally called for Zimmerman (first one was for Trayvon's corpse), but then cancelled:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...#ixzz1qiRUs3nD

Which doesn't help the claim that Zimmerman was seriously injured.

I wonder how "temporary" the Sanford Police Chief's stepping down from his position is going to be.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Danzig

rupe, i appreciate your detailed assessment but all of the above is not something new to me. however, it seems you completely ignored the part where i said 'he was NOT a member of neighborhood watch. had he been, perhaps he'd have known they don't want their members carrying guns. i guess you also ignored the part where the 911 operator told zimmerman not to confront trayvon.
i've also seen where there is no indication of there having been a scuffle, which belies your post.

Anyone can keep a close eye on their neighborhood and act as a neighborhood watch. Some neighborhoods have official neighborhood watches that are very well organized and people actually work shifts. In other neighborhoods, it may be less organized where people just do it when they have time.

I have no idea what the arrangement was in this case. It seems that Zimmerman had been doing it for a while. I think they said he had called police around 45 times over the last year. I would assume that he did the informal neighborhood watch with the blessing of his neighbors. We will see if any evidence comes out that his neighbors didn't want him doing this and they saw him as being overzealous and/or harassing people.

I would agree with you that neighborhood watch programs do not encourage vigilantism. They want people to call the police. They don't want people carrying guns and chasing people.

But all that being said, if the verbal altercation was over and Zimmerman was attacked as he was walking back to his car, I don't think there is much of a case against him.

You are the first person that I've heard say that there was no indication of a scuffle. If that is what the evidence shows (that there was no scuffle), then they should have a good case against Zimmerman.

[Riot]

We will see if any evidence comes out that his neighbors didn't want him doing this and they saw him as being overzealous and/or harassing people.

It already has, Rupert - see below. There are also plenty of neighbor stories that say Zimmerman was helpful and concerned about security and safety of the neighborhood.

George Zimmerman Neighbors Complained About Aggressive Tactics Before Trayvon Martin Killing

A volunteer community watch captain who shot an unarmed Florida teenager to death last month had been the subject of complaints by neighbors in his gated community for aggressive tactics, a homeowner said.

George Zimmerman has not been charged in the Feb. 26 shooting of Trayvon Martin, 17, who was walking home from a convenience store in Sanford, Fla., near Orlando. Zimmerman, who patrolled the Retreat at Twin Lakes development in his own car, had been called aggressive in earlier complaints to the local police and the homeowner's association, according to a homeowner who spoke on the condition of anonymity.

At an emergency homeowner’s association meeting on March 1, “one man was escorted out because he openly expressed his frustration because he had previously contacted the Sanford Police Department about Zimmerman approaching him and even coming to his home,” the resident wrote in an email to HuffPost. “It was also made known that there had been several complaints about George Zimmerman and his tactics" in his neighborhood watch captain role.

The meeting was attended by Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee, the detective assigned to the investigation and an unnamed member of the city council, according to the homeowner’s association newsletter. The chief couldn't immediately be reached for comment about the complaints. A member of the homeowner’s association board, who asked not to be quoted by name, said she “hadn’t heard about any complaints” about Zimmerman. Zimmerman's phone number is disconnected and efforts to reach him have been unsuccessful.

Con't

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1340358.html

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Riot

It already has, Rupert - see below. There are also plenty of neighbor stories that say Zimmerman was helpful and concerned about security and safety of the neighborhood.

Fair enough. It appears that there are some people in the neighborhood that supported him and some who didn't. My guess would be that quite a bit more supported him than didn't, otherwise you would think that the homeowners' association would have told him to stop, if they had been getting a lot of complaints.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Anyone can keep a close eye on their neighborhood and act as a neighborhood watch. Some neighborhoods have official neighborhood watches that are very well organized and people actually work shifts. In other neighborhoods, it may be less organized where people just do it when they have time.

I have no idea what the arrangement was in this case. It seems that Zimmerman had been doing it for a while. I think they said he had called police around 45 times over the last year. I would assume that he did the informal neighborhood watch with the blessing of his neighbors. We will see if any evidence comes out that his neighbors didn't want him doing this and they saw him as being overzealous and/or harassing people.

I would agree with you that neighborhood watch programs do not encourage vigilantism. They want people to call the police. They don't want people carrying guns and chasing people.

But all that being said, if the verbal altercation was over and Zimmerman was attacked as he was walking back to his car, I don't think there is much of a case against him.

You are the first person that I've heard say that there was no indication of a scuffle. If that is what the evidence shows (that there was no scuffle), then they should have a good case against Zimmerman.

the funeral director said there was no sign on martins body to indicate a fight of any kind.

and i've also heard the claim that zimmerman used the word 'coon' as a racial epithet on the 911 call. one of his friends went on t.v. and tried to say no, he said 'goon'. yeah, ok. i'd imagine it's based on that comment that many are saying it was racially motivated.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Danzig

the funeral director said there was no sign on martins body to indicate a fight of any kind.

and i've also heard the claim that zimmerman used the word 'coon' as a racial epithet on the 911 call. one of his friends went on t.v. and tried to say no, he said 'goon'. yeah, ok. i'd imagine it's based on that comment that many are saying it was racially motivated.

There is no evidence that Zimmerman got any punches in. Nobody has claimed that Zimmerman punched Trayvon. The claim is that Trayvon punched Zimmerman a few times and banged Zimmerman's head on the ground. I wouldn't expect Trayvon to have any bruises.

I've never punched anyone before. Does it leave bruises on your knuckle if you punch someone a few times? If so, did the funeral director really examine Trayvon's knuckles that closely? He's the funeral director. He's not a medical examiner doing an autopsy. I highly doubt that he examined Trayvon's knuckles, and even if he did, I highly doubt that he has the expertise to be able to tell you whether Trayvon punched someone a few times.