Derby Trail Forums

Go Back   Derby Trail Forums > Main Forum > The Paddock
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-28-2011, 05:10 PM
Indian Charlie's Avatar
Indian Charlie Indian Charlie is offline
Goodwood
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Southern Maine
Posts: 8,708
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by King Glorious View Post
Because to say anything otherwise would come close to legitimizing Frankel and we just can't have that. I honestly believe that if we had a board like this when Secretariat ran his Belmont or when Spectacular Bid ran his 1:57 4/5, there's a certain group of skeptics on here that would have found fault with those performances. I understand not just jumping in head first whenever we see something that appears to be great and I understand wanting to take the time to analyze it. But sometimes it's ok to admit you've seen greatness and it's ok to appreciate it. People are naturally reluctant to place anything new onto the same level or higher than that which they've romanticized for a long period of time. I get that.
By the way, did you even notice CC badly lugging out in the last 1/4 of the race?

What would you call that?

Would you say that that didn't hurt his chances?

Would you say that didn't affect his finish position, relative to the winner?

Or, are you trying to say that it didn't indicate that maybe something was wrong? That lugging/bearing out that strongly is completely meaningless?

In your post, you even say you understand about not jumping in and taking the time to analyze it, yet when two people do just that, they just are being grumpy old farts that don't want to legitimize a great horse.

You really outdo yourself sometimes.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-28-2011, 05:50 PM
Mawhip Mawhip is offline
Sunshine Park
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 86
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indian Charlie View Post
By the way, did you even notice CC badly lugging out in the last 1/4 of the race?

What would you call that?

Would you say that that didn't hurt his chances?

Would you say that didn't affect his finish position, relative to the winner?

Or, are you trying to say that it didn't indicate that maybe something was wrong? That lugging/bearing out that strongly is completely meaningless?

In your post, you even say you understand about not jumping in and taking the time to analyze it, yet when two people do just that, they just are being grumpy old farts that don't want to legitimize a great horse.

You really outdo yourself sometimes.

Did you ever think he was lugging out because he knew he was soundly defeated and his will was destroyed.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-28-2011, 06:04 PM
philcski's Avatar
philcski philcski is offline
Goodwood
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mission Viejo, CA
Posts: 8,872
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mawhip View Post
Did you ever think he was lugging out because he knew he was soundly defeated and his will was destroyed.
horses don't lug out because they are beaten and their "will is destroyed."

They bear out because 1) don't like the whip, 2) are over the top and tired, or 3) are injured.

Now, I thought highly of the performance but the runner up didn't run his A+ race.
__________________
please use generalizations and non-truths when arguing your side, thank you
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-28-2011, 06:12 PM
Mawhip Mawhip is offline
Sunshine Park
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 86
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by philcski View Post
horses don't lug out because they are beaten and their "will is destroyed."

They bear out because 1) don't like the whip, 2) are over the top and tired, or 3) are injured.

Now, I thought highly of the performance but the runner up didn't run his A+ race.

How do you know?

He wasn't injured, he's not over the top. Only his third race of the season. And he's never shown a distain for the whip.

I suggest he was beat like he's never been beaten before and that effected him in a way that led to his lugging out. This is just a theory but it's as likely as any other that has been suggested here.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-28-2011, 09:38 PM
OTM Al's Avatar
OTM Al OTM Al is offline
Turf Paradise
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 225
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mawhip View Post
How do you know?

He wasn't injured, he's not over the top. Only his third race of the season. And he's never shown a distain for the whip.

I suggest he was beat like he's never been beaten before and that effected him in a way that led to his lugging out. This is just a theory but it's as likely as any other that has been suggested here.
Please keep betting. We need more like you.
__________________
facilis descensus Auerno
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-29-2011, 12:33 PM
Indian Charlie's Avatar
Indian Charlie Indian Charlie is offline
Goodwood
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Southern Maine
Posts: 8,708
Default

One more race for Frankel this year, the QE2 at Ascot in October, then he's to return as a 4yo.

No BC.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-29-2011, 12:33 PM
Indian Charlie's Avatar
Indian Charlie Indian Charlie is offline
Goodwood
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Southern Maine
Posts: 8,708
Default

Oh, and Canford Cliffs is being aimed to the QE2 as well.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-29-2011, 01:06 PM
Clip-Clop Clip-Clop is offline
The Curragh
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Manningtown, Colorado
Posts: 2,727
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indian Charlie View Post
One more race for Frankel this year, the QE2 at Ascot in October, then he's to return as a 4yo.

No BC.
Ducking. Can't blame them.
__________________
don't run out of ammo.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-28-2011, 06:23 PM
brockguy's Avatar
brockguy brockguy is offline
Santa Anita
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,263
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by philcski View Post
horses don't lug out because they are beaten and their "will is destroyed."

They bear out because 1) don't like the whip, 2) are over the top and tired, or 3) are injured.

Now, I thought highly of the performance but the runner up didn't run his A+ race.


Agree with the last statement Phil -

Canford has veered violently to his left before last year at Newbury and lugged to his right in the 2000 Guineas so it wasn't entirely surprising he did it but saying that, I'm hoping there isn't anything wrong and we can have a rematch in the QEII
__________________


#Grand
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-04-2011, 09:12 PM
philcski's Avatar
philcski philcski is offline
Goodwood
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mission Viejo, CA
Posts: 8,872
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by philcski View Post
horses don't lug out because they are beaten and their "will is destroyed."

They bear out because 1) don't like the whip, 2) are over the top and tired, or 3) are injured.

Now, I thought highly of the performance but the runner up didn't run his A+ race.
I guess it was #3, unfortunately
__________________
please use generalizations and non-truths when arguing your side, thank you
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 08-05-2011, 05:18 AM
Mawhip Mawhip is offline
Sunshine Park
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 86
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by philcski View Post
I guess it was #3, unfortunately
The injury was surely caused by trying to keep up with a horse he was incapable of keeping up with. CC showed his class but it ultimately got him injured and retired.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 08-05-2011, 09:16 AM
Indian Charlie's Avatar
Indian Charlie Indian Charlie is offline
Goodwood
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Southern Maine
Posts: 8,708
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mawhip View Post
The injury was surely caused by trying to keep up with a horse he was incapable of keeping up with. CC showed his class but it ultimately got him injured and retired.
Heck yeah man! Every runnerup in grade 1 races injure themselves when they can't keep up with the winner!
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 08-05-2011, 11:51 AM
Mawhip Mawhip is offline
Sunshine Park
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 86
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indian Charlie View Post
Heck yeah man! Every runnerup in grade 1 races injure themselves when they can't keep up with the winner!
Certainly not every one but some do.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08-05-2011, 11:54 AM
hockey2315 hockey2315 is offline
Del Mar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,403
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mawhip View Post
The injury was surely caused by trying to keep up with a horse he was incapable of keeping up with. CC showed his class but it ultimately got him injured and retired.
Oh god. . . I was waiting for this one. Always a classic.
__________________
@BDiDonatoTDN
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08-05-2011, 01:29 PM
Indian Charlie's Avatar
Indian Charlie Indian Charlie is offline
Goodwood
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Southern Maine
Posts: 8,708
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hockey2315 View Post
Oh god. . . I was waiting for this one. Always a classic.
Hey man, you saw what happened to Eight Belles!
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 08-05-2011, 03:10 PM
Danzig Danzig is offline
Dee Tee Stables
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: The Natural State
Posts: 29,940
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mawhip View Post
The injury was surely caused by trying to keep up with a horse he was incapable of keeping up with. CC showed his class but it ultimately got him injured and retired.

or maybe he couldn't catch him or keep up because he got injured? this is almost as nonsensical as anyone saying he had his heart broken or his spirit crushed.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 07-28-2011, 06:54 PM
TouchOfGrey's Avatar
TouchOfGrey TouchOfGrey is offline
Hollywood Park
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Floral Park, NY
Posts: 921
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mawhip View Post
Did you ever think he was lugging out because he knew he was soundly defeated and his will was destroyed.
__________________
"An Absolute Thriller!!" - Grassy wins a six-way photo finish, Saratoga 9th, 8-22-09
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 07-29-2011, 04:47 PM
King Glorious's Avatar
King Glorious King Glorious is offline
Atlantic City Race Course
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Beaumont, CA
Posts: 4,614
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indian Charlie View Post
By the way, did you even notice CC badly lugging out in the last 1/4 of the race?

What would you call that?

Would you say that that didn't hurt his chances?

Would you say that didn't affect his finish position, relative to the winner?

Or, are you trying to say that it didn't indicate that maybe something was wrong? That lugging/bearing out that strongly is completely meaningless?

In your post, you even say you understand about not jumping in and taking the time to analyze it, yet when two people do just that, they just are being grumpy old farts that don't want to legitimize a great horse.

You really outdo yourself sometimes.
To answer your questions, this is what I posted on the other thread soon after the race:

Quote:
Originally Posted by King Glorious View Post
I know that it might just be the moment speaking but I am pretty sure that he's the best miler I've ever seen. If you didn't know how good Canford Cliffs was, you'd have still been impressed. Knowing the quality of CC and how easily he was defeated, maybe it's not just the moment speaking. The only thing that's holding me back is that it's likely that Canford Cliffs was injured during the race looking at the way he was drifting out down the lane.
So yes, I did see him lugging out and I think he may be injured even though nothing has been said yet. So of course I think it affected how big the margin of victory was. But for me, I don't judge how good an effort one horse puts in by what another puts in. If he comes over and wins the BC Mile in 1:31 2/5 and wins by 20, do I say that since the others didn't run so well, it devalues what he did? I don't think so. That's just not how I evaluate a performance.

What I said in the other post was that I do understand that it's always best not to jump to premature opinions without analyzing everything.....but that sometimes you see something that you don't need to spend weeks and years of analyzing the data. Sometimes, you just know what you see right when you see it. Things like Usain Bolt running a race, Albert Pujols at the plate, Michael Jordan with a basketball in his hands....you know greatness when you are watching it. I will agree with you that it takes a longer time, usually until a career is over to accurately try to place a horse's achievements in a historical perspective but I don't think it takes as long to recognize talent. You may believe that it's silly for people to say they think he's one of the great talents they've ever seen. That's a matter of opinion. For whatever it's worth, his trainer says he's the best he's seen and he's been around and had some pretty good ones in his care. In any event, just because some of us disagree with you doesn't mean we don't understand where you are coming from.
__________________
The real horses of the year (1986-2020)
Manila, Java Gold, Alysheba, Sunday Silence, Go for Wand, In Excess, Paseana, Kotashaan, Holy Bull, Cigar, Alphabet Soup, Formal Gold, Skip Away, Artax, Tiznow, Point Given, Azeri, Candy Ride, Smarty Jones, Ghostzapper, Invasor, Curlin, Zenyatta, Zenyatta, Goldikova, Havre de Grace, Wise Dan, Wise Dan, California Chrome, American Pharoah, Arrogate, Gun Runner, Accelerate, Maximum Security, Gamine
Reply With Quote
Reply



Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:03 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.