Are the Patriots better without Randy Moss?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Montana definitely. Johnny Unitas or Bart Starr maybe, but they played before I was born, so it's tough to make a a strong arguement for them. Maybe Brett Favre if he retired four years ago. Brady's better than Peyton Manning but not by much.

Don't get me wrong, Brady is fantastic. But he also plays in a system that made Matt Cassel 11-5 as a starter and makes guys like Benjarvis Green Ellis look like a Pro Bowler.

Edit: I see Dala mentioned Elway. I agree, but like she said it's disputable.

I know i will get blasted but I always thought Montana was a bit overrated. Great player and top 5 QB but he played for Bill Walsh and had jerry Rice. I dont think Joe Montana is in the top 10 if he played for a different team. People forget but he wasnt very durable towards the end of his SF career and Young (who also was always hurt) came in and pretty much picked up where Montana left off.

Elway made way too many mistakes and threw way too many bad balls to be considered better than Brady or Manning IMO.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I know i will get blasted but I always thought Montana was a bit overrated. Great player and top 5 QB but he played for Bill Walsh and had jerry Rice. I dont think Joe Montana is in the top 10 if he played for a different team. People forget but he wasnt very durable towards the end of his SF career and Young (who also was always hurt) came in and pretty much picked up where Montana left off.

Elway made way too many mistakes and threw way too many bad balls to be considered better than Brady or Manning IMO.

It's not like Steve Young was Matt Cassel though. He was a really good QB in his own right and if I'm remembering it correctly was making more as a backup than many starters were making.

Do you guys think Brady would be Brady without Belichick? If Tom Brady played for the Lions would he be this well thought of? I doubt it. You have to have help. Both Montana and Brady have gotten their fair share of help, both coaching and with their teams.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Do you guys think Brady would be Brady without Belichick?

Why does Belichick get credit and not the strength and conditioning guy?

Belichick's never had any prior success as an offensive coach anywhere.

Brady's O-line is so good that he goes entire games at home where no one even touches him.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

It's not like Steve Young was Matt Cassel though. He was a really good QB in his own right and if I'm remembering it correctly was making more as a backup than many starters were making.

Do you guys think Brady would be Brady without Belichick? If Tom Brady played for the Lions would he be this well thought of? I doubt it. You have to have help. Both Montana and Brady have gotten their fair share of help, both coaching and with their teams.

Valid point though the difference to me is that Walsh was running schemes in the 80's that are used now. There is no doubt that the NFL as a whole is closer from top to bottom now than it was when Montana played. The advantage that SF had over most other teams was enormous and it took the league awhile to catch up. Plus Walsh was a master at finding talent from obscure places AND back then you had an easier time keeping them. I think that Montana was perfect for that system because he was smart enough to understand the system and make the right plays. Obvously there is no way to know different and you have to give credit for what he accomplished but I think that if Montana played for a decent team where QB play wasnt as important as it was in SF then, (Washington under Gibbs??), he isnt ranked nearly as high as he is.

I think Brady is similar as you point out and you can probably make the case that the two are probably very close and/or exchangable.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

It's not like Steve Young was Matt Cassel though. He was a really good QB in his own right and if I'm remembering it correctly was making more as a backup than many starters were making.

Do you guys think Brady would be Brady without Belichick? If Tom Brady played for the Lions would he be this well thought of? I doubt it. You have to have help. Both Montana and Brady have gotten their fair share of help, both coaching and with their teams.

That's a fair question with Brady and belichick but isn't it just as plausible to wonder where the lions would be if belichick was coaching them? What was bill as a head coach before Brady? Fired once and on his way to being fired again.

I think there are a few people that owe Brady some money. Romeo crennel? That idiot in Denver? Charlie Weiss??

These guys are proven nothings without Brady and really so is belichick although I think he is a great coach.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

That's a fair question with Brady and belichick but isn't it just as plausible to wonder where the lions would be if belichick was coaching them? What was bill as a head coach before Brady? Fired once and on his way to being fired again.

I think there are a few people that owe Brady some money. Romeo crennel? That idiot in Denver? Charlie Weiss??

These guys are proven nothings without Brady and really so is belichick although I think he is a great coach.

The thing is, Matt Cassel won 11 games under the Belichick system. Belichick coached the Browns to an 11 win season and a playoff win. The Browns, think about that.

They are both great but I think neither would be what they are without the other.

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

The thing is, Matt Cassel won 11 games under the Belichick system. Belichick coached the Browns to an 11 win season and a playoff win. The Browns, think about that.

They are both great but I think neither would be what they are without the other.

That was the pre-move to Baltimore Browns. It was a completely different organization than the current Browns. A ton of guys won coaching in that organization before the move and still are currently in Baltimore. It's an organization with 5 NFL championships. Winning 11 there was hardly anything special at all.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

That was the pre-move to Baltimore Browns. It was a completely different organization than the current Browns. A ton of guys won coaching in that organization before the move and still are currently in Baltimore. It's an organization with 5 NFL championships. Winning 11 there was hardly anything special at all.

Marty schottenheimer and Sam rutigliano to name two.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

That was the pre-move to Baltimore Browns. It was a completely different organization than the current Browns. A ton of guys won coaching in that organization before the move and still are currently in Baltimore. It's an organization with 5 NFL championships. Winning 11 there was hardly anything special at all.

You're right, Cleveland really has a rich tradition of winning. You guys have had three 11 win seasons in the last 50 years. Belichick coached one of them.

[nebrady]

Who doesn't think vick has learned what its all about! He now realizes he has a gift but knows it not a 9-5 job and has learned to appreciate the god given talent he has. Hes done everything right and can you imagine if moss learned from vick. As for brady being the best, he has 3 rings and right now maybe playing the best ever. Yeah he maybe part of a system, but how many people said the patiriots were rebuilding? Bellichick is a master of the draft and having draft picks for the future. Say what you want he is a great coach. As for montana being overrated, really? How soon we forget the drive against cincy when he got in the huddle and told them were going down the field and winning this game. Which he did!

[Bigsmc]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

It's not like Steve Young was Matt Cassel though. He was a really good QB in his own right and if I'm remembering it correctly was making more as a backup than many starters were making.

Do you guys think Brady would be Brady without Belichick? If Tom Brady played for the Lions would he be this well thought of? I doubt it. You have to have help. Both Montana and Brady have gotten their fair share of help, both coaching and with their teams.

You can use that argument with any QB. How did Steve Young look in creamsicle orange?

It's the coach and team that surrounds the QB that makes him great. Few can stay upright (or healthy) long enough on a shitty team to make an impact.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I know i will get blasted but I always thought Montana was a bit overrated. Great player and top 5 QB but he played for Bill Walsh and had jerry Rice. I dont think Joe Montana is in the top 10 if he played for a different team. People forget but he wasnt very durable towards the end of his SF career and Young (who also was always hurt) came in and pretty much picked up where Montana left off.

Elway made way too many mistakes and threw way too many bad balls to be considered better than Brady or Manning IMO.

People forget that Montana won two without rice. Rules were different then and a defensive back actually had a chance. For my money, the guy playing corner for the jets right now is the best ever at that spot.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

For my money, the guy playing corner for the jets right now is the best ever at that spot.

I have a real hard time saying that a guy with 2 good seasons is the best ever.

[Bigsmc]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I have a real hard time saying that a guy with 2 good seasons is the best ever.

It's the same with any sport, including horse racing, people are in such a rush to crown the latest phenom as the best ever.