Are the Patriots better without Randy Moss?

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

He's great obviously, but I don't know about best ever.

Go through the list of the greats and give me a couple that you'd definitely want over him- there's probably a few which I couldn't debate if you chose them. It's obviously a very difficult, if not impossible, question to answer, but for my money I'd take him.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by philcski

Go through the list of the greats and give me a couple that you'd definitely want over him- there's probably a few which I couldn't debate if you chose them. It's obviously a very difficult, if not impossible, question to answer, but for my money I'd take him.

Golden Joe was better. Elway was better. Not indisputable though. Brady is in the conversation either way.

Manning is playing out of his mind.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by philcski

Go through the list of the greats and give me a couple that you'd definitely want over him- there's probably a few which I couldn't debate if you chose them. It's obviously a very difficult, if not impossible, question to answer, but for my money I'd take him.

Montana definitely. Johnny Unitas or Bart Starr maybe, but they played before I was born, so it's tough to make a a strong arguement for them. Maybe Brett Favre if he retired four years ago. Brady's better than Peyton Manning but not by much.

Don't get me wrong, Brady is fantastic. But he also plays in a system that made Matt Cassel 11-5 as a starter and makes guys like Benjarvis Green Ellis look like a Pro Bowler.

Edit: I see Dala mentioned Elway. I agree, but like she said it's disputable.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Brady got boo'd off the field at Michigan for most of his senior year.

The Strength and Conditioning Coach in New England is Juan Carlos Guerrero like. Only guy alive with 6 Super Bowl rings earned ... and he's a lucky Giants comeback away from having 7 Super Bowl rings and a 19-0 season.

Plus - one of the most improbable turn arounds in NCAA Football history happened under him.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Montana definitely. Johnny Unitas or Bart Starr maybe, but they played before I was born, so it's tough to make a a strong arguement for them. Maybe Brett Favre if he retired four years ago. Brady's better than Peyton Manning but not by much.

Don't get me wrong, Brady is fantastic. But he also plays in a system that made Matt Cassel 11-5 as a starter and makes guys like Benjarvis Green Ellis look like a Pro Bowler.

Edit: I see Dala mentioned Elway. I agree, but like she said it's disputable.

I can't speak for Johnny Unitas or Bart Starr either of course, but I do know that today's athletes are not comparable to those and I would take any of the modern QB's (1980-) based on that. Montana is the one that clearly is the competition, because if you weight Super Bowls/playoffs heaviest, he is so far ahead of the next guy it isn't even funny (and that's not to say Brady isn't ultra clutch). But if you look at the regular season statistics (especially factoring in he had the greatest receiver to ever lace 'em up on his side, and a top 50 in Taylor as well):

Montana: 3,409 completions, 5,391 attempts (63.3%), 40,551 yards, 273 TD's, 139 INT's, rating of 92.3 in what was essentially full 12 seasons

Brady: 2,908 completions, 4,574 attempts (63.6%), 33,547 yards, 248 TD's, 103 INT's, rating of 94.3 in 8.75 seasons

Elway: 4,123 completions, 7,250 attempts (56.8%), 51,475 yards, 300 TD's, 226 INT's in 16 seasons

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by philcski

But if you look at the regular season statistics (especially factoring in he had the greatest receiver to ever lace 'em up on his side, and a top 50 in Taylor as well):

Didn't you say not too long ago that Moss was the best ever?

[philcski]

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

Didn't you say not too long ago that Moss was the best ever?

It's between him and Rice, obviously. Moss is the best ever when he wants to be- which isn't often this year. Rice never took a play off, even when he was a shadow of his former self with the Raiders.

As for Moss' impact, even if you take out the crazy stats from the 16-0 regular season his #'s are still awesome.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

When NFL Network rated the top 100 players of all-time - they had a stupid rating system where they ask that players be rated from 1 to 10.

A guy like Jerry Rice who is as solid as it gets at a position that attracts douchebaggery is going to get 10's all over. That's how he ended up #1 overall over Jim Brown and all those great QB's. He's a friggen reciever - you have to draw up ways and sceme to get him the ball.

A guy like Randy Moss is going to get 1's and 2's from a few people who simply don't like him. Peter King even said "he should have been and even could have been a lot higher - but anyone who says they don't work for their check - that guy isn't for me" That's how Moss ends up at #65.

OJ Simpson ran for over 2,000 yards in a 14 game season on a team that was supposedly one dimensional. I bet a few people shaved a point or two off of his score because he murdered a couple of people. He should have been higher on a more rational system.

Even Deoin has a point. A few people who didn't like his antics and couldn't stand him probably shaved a point or two off.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Montana definitely. Johnny Unitas or Bart Starr maybe, but they played before I was born, so it's tough to make a a strong arguement for them. Maybe Brett Favre if he retired four years ago. Brady's better than Peyton Manning but not by much.

Don't get me wrong, Brady is fantastic. But he also plays in a system that made Matt Cassel 11-5 as a starter and makes guys like Benjarvis Green Ellis look like a Pro Bowler.

Edit: I see Dala mentioned Elway. I agree, but like she said it's disputable.

I know i will get blasted but I always thought Montana was a bit overrated. Great player and top 5 QB but he played for Bill Walsh and had jerry Rice. I dont think Joe Montana is in the top 10 if he played for a different team. People forget but he wasnt very durable towards the end of his SF career and Young (who also was always hurt) came in and pretty much picked up where Montana left off.

Elway made way too many mistakes and threw way too many bad balls to be considered better than Brady or Manning IMO.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I know i will get blasted but I always thought Montana was a bit overrated. Great player and top 5 QB but he played for Bill Walsh and had jerry Rice. I dont think Joe Montana is in the top 10 if he played for a different team. People forget but he wasnt very durable towards the end of his SF career and Young (who also was always hurt) came in and pretty much picked up where Montana left off.

Elway made way too many mistakes and threw way too many bad balls to be considered better than Brady or Manning IMO.

It's not like Steve Young was Matt Cassel though. He was a really good QB in his own right and if I'm remembering it correctly was making more as a backup than many starters were making.

Do you guys think Brady would be Brady without Belichick? If Tom Brady played for the Lions would he be this well thought of? I doubt it. You have to have help. Both Montana and Brady have gotten their fair share of help, both coaching and with their teams.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Do you guys think Brady would be Brady without Belichick?

Why does Belichick get credit and not the strength and conditioning guy?

Belichick's never had any prior success as an offensive coach anywhere.

Brady's O-line is so good that he goes entire games at home where no one even touches him.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

It's not like Steve Young was Matt Cassel though. He was a really good QB in his own right and if I'm remembering it correctly was making more as a backup than many starters were making.

Do you guys think Brady would be Brady without Belichick? If Tom Brady played for the Lions would he be this well thought of? I doubt it. You have to have help. Both Montana and Brady have gotten their fair share of help, both coaching and with their teams.

Valid point though the difference to me is that Walsh was running schemes in the 80's that are used now. There is no doubt that the NFL as a whole is closer from top to bottom now than it was when Montana played. The advantage that SF had over most other teams was enormous and it took the league awhile to catch up. Plus Walsh was a master at finding talent from obscure places AND back then you had an easier time keeping them. I think that Montana was perfect for that system because he was smart enough to understand the system and make the right plays. Obvously there is no way to know different and you have to give credit for what he accomplished but I think that if Montana played for a decent team where QB play wasnt as important as it was in SF then, (Washington under Gibbs??), he isnt ranked nearly as high as he is.

I think Brady is similar as you point out and you can probably make the case that the two are probably very close and/or exchangable.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

It's not like Steve Young was Matt Cassel though. He was a really good QB in his own right and if I'm remembering it correctly was making more as a backup than many starters were making.

Do you guys think Brady would be Brady without Belichick? If Tom Brady played for the Lions would he be this well thought of? I doubt it. You have to have help. Both Montana and Brady have gotten their fair share of help, both coaching and with their teams.

That's a fair question with Brady and belichick but isn't it just as plausible to wonder where the lions would be if belichick was coaching them? What was bill as a head coach before Brady? Fired once and on his way to being fired again.

I think there are a few people that owe Brady some money. Romeo crennel? That idiot in Denver? Charlie Weiss??

These guys are proven nothings without Brady and really so is belichick although I think he is a great coach.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

That's a fair question with Brady and belichick but isn't it just as plausible to wonder where the lions would be if belichick was coaching them? What was bill as a head coach before Brady? Fired once and on his way to being fired again.

I think there are a few people that owe Brady some money. Romeo crennel? That idiot in Denver? Charlie Weiss??

These guys are proven nothings without Brady and really so is belichick although I think he is a great coach.

The thing is, Matt Cassel won 11 games under the Belichick system. Belichick coached the Browns to an 11 win season and a playoff win. The Browns, think about that.

They are both great but I think neither would be what they are without the other.

[horseofcourse]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

The thing is, Matt Cassel won 11 games under the Belichick system. Belichick coached the Browns to an 11 win season and a playoff win. The Browns, think about that.

They are both great but I think neither would be what they are without the other.

That was the pre-move to Baltimore Browns. It was a completely different organization than the current Browns. A ton of guys won coaching in that organization before the move and still are currently in Baltimore. It's an organization with 5 NFL championships. Winning 11 there was hardly anything special at all.

[nebrady]

Who doesn't think vick has learned what its all about! He now realizes he has a gift but knows it not a 9-5 job and has learned to appreciate the god given talent he has. Hes done everything right and can you imagine if moss learned from vick. As for brady being the best, he has 3 rings and right now maybe playing the best ever. Yeah he maybe part of a system, but how many people said the patiriots were rebuilding? Bellichick is a master of the draft and having draft picks for the future. Say what you want he is a great coach. As for montana being overrated, really? How soon we forget the drive against cincy when he got in the huddle and told them were going down the field and winning this game. Which he did!

[Bigsmc]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

It's not like Steve Young was Matt Cassel though. He was a really good QB in his own right and if I'm remembering it correctly was making more as a backup than many starters were making.

Do you guys think Brady would be Brady without Belichick? If Tom Brady played for the Lions would he be this well thought of? I doubt it. You have to have help. Both Montana and Brady have gotten their fair share of help, both coaching and with their teams.

You can use that argument with any QB. How did Steve Young look in creamsicle orange?

It's the coach and team that surrounds the QB that makes him great. Few can stay upright (or healthy) long enough on a shitty team to make an impact.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I know i will get blasted but I always thought Montana was a bit overrated. Great player and top 5 QB but he played for Bill Walsh and had jerry Rice. I dont think Joe Montana is in the top 10 if he played for a different team. People forget but he wasnt very durable towards the end of his SF career and Young (who also was always hurt) came in and pretty much picked up where Montana left off.

Elway made way too many mistakes and threw way too many bad balls to be considered better than Brady or Manning IMO.

People forget that Montana won two without rice. Rules were different then and a defensive back actually had a chance. For my money, the guy playing corner for the jets right now is the best ever at that spot.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by dalakhani

For my money, the guy playing corner for the jets right now is the best ever at that spot.

I have a real hard time saying that a guy with 2 good seasons is the best ever.

[Bigsmc]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I have a real hard time saying that a guy with 2 good seasons is the best ever.

It's the same with any sport, including horse racing, people are in such a rush to crown the latest phenom as the best ever.