The Graveyard of Champions Claims Another

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by Danzig

my only concern is did he ride frosted to win or get him the best possible finish? that's a jocks job. they're only supposed to ride one horse, not two.
if he only rode to pressure ap and they both get beat, than i can see why there'd be complaints

But it wasn't like he quarter horsed him out of the gate to get the jump or pressure AP. He stalked for the first half in what was a sensible pace, cause no one else went. Then he made a move and put a nose in front at the top of the lane. A better horse just dug in and put him away. Where does he finish if he doesn't stay near the lead? He certainly doesn't win, does he finish second?

I just dont understand it. If you want to kill someone, how bout Kent? What exactly was his gameplan on Texas Red? Or did something happen with the horse that I am unaware of?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

But it wasn't like he quarter horsed him out of the gate to get the jump or pressure AP. He stalked for the first half in what was a sensible pace, cause no one else went. Then he made a move and put a nose in front at the top of the lane. A better horse just dug in and put him away. Where does he finish if he doesn't stay near the lead? He certainly doesn't win, does he finish second?

I just dont understand it. If you want to kill someone, how bout Kent? What exactly was his gameplan on Texas Red? Or did something happen with the horse that I am unaware of?

i don't want to kill anyone.
if he rode him to win, that's what he should have done. if he didn't, that's what people would take issue with.
frosteds trainer implied he'd have settled better had he had his regular jock-and that's no one's fault that he didn't.

[jms62]

My 2 cents. At that point of the day the track was extremely favorable to the front end. I can see where Lezcano would think if he let AP get the jump the game was over for him. I can also see where Espinoza saw the same thing and felt the only way he could lose is let Frosted barrel ahead on the lead and let the track carry him. Hence a classic duel ensued. If Pharoh holds on we are talking about an incredible effort for the ages that he gets headed but courageously battles back to win. No one did anything wrong in my opinion. It was a classic horse race and that is why they run em cause the 1/5 favorite can get beat.

One negative I take away is the constant whining from Bafferts camp. It seems like he thinks it is his divine right to have his super horses be uncontested for the lead. Think back to the whining with Game On Dude after his losses.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by jms62

My 2 cents. At that point of the day the track was extremely favorable to the front end. I can see where Lezcano would think if he let AP get the jump the game was over for him. I can also see where Espinoza saw the same thing and felt the only way he could lose is let Frosted barrel ahead on the lead and let the track carry him. Hence a classic duel ensued. If Pharoh holds on we are talking about an incredible effort for the ages that he gets headed but courageously battles back to win. No one did anything wrong in my opinion. It was a classic horse race and that is why they run em cause the 1/5 favorite can get beat.

One negative I take away is the constant whining from Bafferts camp. It seems like he thinks it is his divine right to have his super horses be uncontested for the lead. Think back to the whining with Game On Dude after his losses.

[JimmyEllis]

Lezcano didn't do anything wrong. Espinosa did have the option of stalking. Why the focus on Lezcano rather than Espinosa? Johnny V wins on AP. Espinosa not only let an inferior horse, that did essentially ZERO running, win a coveted race but he also gutted his horse in the process. Did he actually think that Frosted would beat him (unlikely) or was he more concerned with winning by open lengths - without regard to the cost to the horse?

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by JimmyEllis

Lezcano didn't do anything wrong. Espinosa did have the option of stalking. Why the focus on Lezcano rather than Espinosa? Johnny V wins on AP. Espinosa not only let an inferior horse, that did essentially ZERO running, win a coveted race but he also gutted his horse in the process. Did he actually think that Frosted would beat him (unlikely) or was he more concerned with winning by open lengths - without regard to the cost to the horse?

So Espinoza erred by using his horse's best weapon, his speed? Not sure I'm understanding this point at all.

American Pharoah was the lone speed on paper, he got the lead, went a moderate half-mile, was engaged and was beaten. He ran a fine race, one that was on par with the rest that he had run.

[JimmyEllis]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

So Espinoza erred by using his horse's best weapon, his speed? Not sure I'm understanding this point at all.

American Pharoah was the lone speed on paper, he got the lead, went a moderate half-mile, was engaged and was beaten. He ran a fine race, one that was on par with the rest that he had run.

When you enter the stretch dueling with an inferior horse you have two choices:
Fixate on a horse that can't beat you and ask your horse so you can put the other horse away as early as possible

Or

Realize that you can get that one any time you want and that doing it too early allows other horses into the race and your horse might not have anything left.

Pat Day understood this. JV does as well. Espinosa doesn't.

[Travis Stone]

When you enter the stretch dueling with an inferior horse you have two choices:
Fixate on a horse that can't beat you and ask your horse so you can put the other horse away as early as possible

Or

Realize that you can get that one any time you want and that doing it too early allows other horses into the race and your horse might not have anything left.

Pat Day understood this. JV does as well. Espinosa doesn't.

When you enter the stretch of any horse race, it's time to go... playing mini-chess games with rivals around you is a sure way to get beat.

[JimmyEllis]

Originally Posted by Travis Stone

When you enter the stretch of any horse race, it's time to go... playing mini-chess games with rivals around you is a sure way to get beat.

If this were true, then horses would never 'come again' in the stretch to win races. I suggest going to YOUTUBE and watching a replay of the 2009 Vinery Madison stakes. See if Informed Decision's rider followed your advice.

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by JimmyEllis

American Pharoah was the lone speed on paper, he got the lead, went a moderate half-mile, was engaged and was beaten. He ran a fine race, one that was on par with the rest that he had run.[/QUOTE
When you enter the stretch dueling with an inferior horse you have two choices:
Fixate on a horse that can't beat you and ask your horse so you can put the other horse away as early as possible

Or

Realize that you can get that one any time you want and that doing it too early allows other horses into the race and your horse might not have anything left.

Pat Day understood this. JV does as well. Espinosa doesn't.

I'm sorry, I disagree. I just don't think it was his day. When I saw the opening half go in 48 and change, I thought he was just gonna jog home. It's just not as simple as say a drag race, where a corvette is going to spot a Altima 5 lengths in the stretch and run him down when he wants every time. Even though AP is the better horse, they aren't machines. Victor knew his horse was in trouble, he put Frosted away when he was supposed to, unfortunately he just wasn't good enough on this day to hold off Keen Ice.

[DonGuido]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

I'm sorry, I disagree. I just don't think it was his day. When I saw the opening half go in 48 and change, I thought he was just gonna jog home. It's just not as simple as say a drag race, where a corvette is going to spot a Altima 5 lengths in the stretch and run him down when he wants every time. Even though AP is the better horse, they aren't machines. Victor knew his horse was in trouble, he put Frosted away when he was supposed to, unfortunately he just wasn't good enough on this day to hold off Keen Ice.

Agree 150% but I still think Victor does need to take some of the blame.

[Kitan]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

I'm sorry, I disagree. I just don't think it was his day. When I saw the opening half go in 48 and change, I thought he was just gonna jog home. It's just not as simple as say a drag race, where a corvette is going to spot a Altima 5 lengths in the stretch and run him down when he wants every time. Even though AP is the better horse, they aren't machines. Victor knew his horse was in trouble, he put Frosted away when he was supposed to, unfortunately he just wasn't good enough on this day to hold off Keen Ice.

To be fair, 48.1 111.2 for 10f at Saratoga is pretty quick...

[JimmyEllis]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

I'm sorry, I disagree. I just don't think it was his day. When I saw the opening half go in 48 and change, I thought he was just gonna jog home. It's just not as simple as say a drag race, where a corvette is going to spot a Altima 5 lengths in the stretch and run him down when he wants every time. Even though AP is the better horse, they aren't machines. Victor knew his horse was in trouble, he put Frosted away when he was supposed to, unfortunately he just wasn't good enough on this day to hold off Keen Ice.

5 lengths, really? I'm talking about not asking a horse for its best run entering the stretch and you somehow interpret this is as taking him to the rear of the pack. He put Frosted away too early. And, he really didn't need to put Frosted away.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by JimmyEllis

When you enter the stretch dueling with an inferior horse you have two choices:
Fixate on a horse that can't beat you and ask your horse so you can put the other horse away as early as possible

Or

Realize that you can get that one any time you want and that doing it too early allows other horses into the race and your horse might not have anything left.

Pat Day understood this. JV does as well. Espinosa doesn't.

What are we talking about when we say "inferior horse"? It is not as if Frosted was some 40-1 Durrow ex-claimer rabbit used to soften up Ghostzapper or Commentator.

On form, American Pharoah is a couple of lengths better than Frosted. That doesn't mean he's able to fool with the horse at his leisure.

The way this race shook out was little different than the 1998 Jockey Club Gold Cup (HOY Skip Away softens up Arg champ Gentlemen), the 2004 Personal Ensign (MGSW Roar Emotion softens up HOY Azeri), or the 2010 Personal Ensign (MG1W Life At Ten softens up HOY Rachel Alexandra).