15 Reasons why AP can't win The Crown

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by freddymo

2) To discount brilliance at 2 that affords a championship and carry's into the 3 year old year suggests a lack of emphasis on how infrequent it happens. Uncle Mo is a perfect example as good/fast a baby as I have ever seen just never made it to TC.. Lesson when it happens it means a lot

Fred, let's look at dual classic winners:

1963: Chateaugay- won 2 of 5 starts at 2; lost Preakness
1964: Northern Dancer- champion 2yo in Canada (won 7 of 9); lost Belmont
1966: Kauai King- won 1 of 4 starts at 2; lost Belmont
1967: Damascus- won 3 of 4 starts at 2 including Remsen; lost Derby
1968: Forward Pass- stakes winner in 2 starts at 2; lost Belmont
1969: Majestic Prince- winner of both starts at 2; lost Belmont
1971: Canonero II- won 1 of 3 starts at 2 (2 in NA); lost Belmont
1972: Riva Ridge- champion 2yo (won 7 of 9); lost Preakness
1974: Little Current- maiden in 4 starts at 2; lost Derby
1976: Bold Forbes- won 7 of 8 starts including stakes; lost Preakness
1979: Spectacular Bid- champion 2yo (won 7 of 9); lost Belmont
1981: Pleasant Colony- won 2 of 5 starts including Remsen; lost Belmont
1984: Swale- won 5 of 7 (2nd in vote for champion); lost Preakness
1987: Alysheba- won 1 of 7 starts, 3rd BC Juvenile; lost Belmont
1988: Risen Star- won 2 of 3 starts; lost Derby
1989: Sunday Silence- won 1 of 3 starts; lost Belmont
1991: Hansel- won 3 of 5, stakes winner; lost Derby
1993: Tabasco Cat- won 3 of 6, 3rd BC Juvenile; lost Derby
1995: Thunder Gulch- won 2 of 6 including Remsen; lost Preakness
1997: Silver Charm- won 2 of 3 including stakes; lost Belmont
1998: Real Quiet- won 2 of 9 starts, including G1; lost Belmont
1999: Charismatic- won 1 of 7 starts; lost Belmont
2002: War Emblem- won 2 of 3 starts; lost Belmont
2003: Funny Cide- won 3 of 3 including stakes; lost Belmont
2004: Smarty Jones- won 2 of 2 including stakes; lost Belmont
2006: Afleet Alex- won 4 of 6, G1, 2nd in Eclipse voting; lost Derby
2008: Big Brown- won only start at 2; lost Belmont
2012: I'll Have Another- won 1 of 3, stakes placed; did not attempt TC
2014: California Chrome- won 3 of 7, including stakes; lost Belmont

Now, recent Triple Crown winners:
1973: Secretariat- champion 2yo (won 7 of 9)
1977: Seattle Slew- champion 2yo (won 3 of 3)
1978: Affirmed- champion 2yo (won 7 of 9)

Finally,

2015: American Pharaoh- champion 2yo (won 2 of 3)

Other curiosities:

-2 of Bob Baffert's other Triple Crown failures won 2 of 3 starts as 2yos. American Pharaoh won 2 of 3 starts as a 2yo.

-of all the horses listed, only 2 ran in the Del Mar Futurity at 2, Silver Charm and California Chrome, both of whom failed in the Belmont. American Pharaoh won the Del Mar Futurity last year.

-average starts at 2 for modern Triple Crown winner = 7
-average starts at 2 for recent Triple Crown failure = 5

-24 of the 29 Triple Crown failures competed in stakes as 2yos

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Fred, let's look at dual classic winners:

1963: Chateaugay- won 2 of 5 starts at 2; lost Preakness
1964: Northern Dancer- champion 2yo in Canada (won 7 of 9); lost Belmont
1966: Kauai King- won 1 of 4 starts at 2; lost Belmont
1967: Damascus- won 3 of 4 starts at 2 including Remsen; lost Derby
1968: Forward Pass- stakes winner in 2 starts at 2; lost Belmont
1969: Majestic Prince- winner of both starts at 2; lost Belmont
1971: Canonero II- won 1 of 3 starts at 2 (2 in NA); lost Belmont
1972: Riva Ridge- champion 2yo (won 7 of 9); lost Preakness
1974: Little Current- maiden in 4 starts at 2; lost Derby
1976: Bold Forbes- won 7 of 8 starts including stakes; lost Preakness
1979: Spectacular Bid- champion 2yo (won 7 of 9); lost Belmont
1981: Pleasant Colony- won 2 of 5 starts including Remsen; lost Belmont
1984: Swale- won 5 of 7 (2nd in vote for champion); lost Preakness
1987: Alysheba- won 1 of 7 starts, 3rd BC Juvenile; lost Belmont
1988: Risen Star- won 2 of 3 starts; lost Derby
1989: Sunday Silence- won 1 of 3 starts; lost Belmont
1991: Hansel- won 3 of 5, stakes winner; lost Derby
1993: Tabasco Cat- won 3 of 6, 3rd BC Juvenile; lost Derby
1995: Thunder Gulch- won 2 of 6 including Remsen; lost Preakness
1997: Silver Charm- won 2 of 3 including stakes; lost Belmont
1998: Real Quiet- won 2 of 9 starts, including G1; lost Belmont
1999: Charismatic- won 1 of 7 starts; lost Belmont
2002: War Emblem- won 2 of 3 starts; lost Belmont
2003: Funny Cide- won 3 of 3 including stakes; lost Belmont
2004: Smarty Jones- won 2 of 2 including stakes; lost Belmont
2006: Afleet Alex- won 4 of 6, G1, 2nd in Eclipse voting; lost Derby
2008: Big Brown- won only start at 2; lost Belmont
2012: I'll Have Another- won 1 of 3, stakes placed; did not attempt TC
2014: California Chrome- won 3 of 7, including stakes; lost Belmont

Now, recent Triple Crown winners:
1973: Secretariat- champion 2yo (won 7 of 9)
1977: Seattle Slew- champion 2yo (won 3 of 3)
1978: Affirmed- champion 2yo (won 7 of 9)

Finally,

2015: American Pharaoh- champion 2yo (won 2 of 3)

Other curiosities:

-2 of Bob Baffert's other Triple Crown failures won 2 of 3 starts as 2yos. American Pharaoh won 2 of 3 starts as a 2yo.

-of all the horses listed, only 2 ran in the Del Mar Futurity at 2, Silver Charm and California Chrome, both of whom failed in the Belmont. American Pharaoh won the Del Mar Futurity last year.

-average starts at 2 for modern Triple Crown winner = 7
-average starts at 2 for recent Triple Crown failure = 5

-24 of the 29 Triple Crown failures competed in stakes as 2yos

Correct me IF I wrong because all you have done is repp'd nothing which discounts the simple fact that of the last 7 2 year old champs that have attempted to win TC WHEN THEY WON THE FIRST 2 LEGS ONLY S Bid lost. YES OR NO will do.

[Sightseek]

I have a very important question....


what is toot???

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Sightseek

I have a very important question....


what is toot???

In my world Cocaine

[richard burch]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Correct me IF I wrong because all you have done is repp'd nothing which discounts the simple fact that of the last 7 2 year old champs that have attempted to win TC WHEN THEY WON THE FIRST 2 LEGS ONLY S Bid lost. YES OR NO will do.

it's a good sign that we had 7 chances in the 2000's so far.

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Correct me IF I wrong because all you have done is repp'd nothing which discounts the simple fact that of the last 7 2 year old champs that have attempted to win TC WHEN THEY WON THE FIRST 2 LEGS ONLY S Bid lost. YES OR NO will do.

hmmm. You want a yes/no answer from Rollo Tomasi, but you avoided my question to you. Let me paraphrase it: If the close voting for 2014 Juvenile Champion had gone the other way, and Texas Red had won it, would that mean that American Pharoah would have a smaller chance to win the TC, in your opinion?

You've written that AP is "a stone cold cinch" to win the Belmont. How much of that is due to his squeaking out a 53%/47% win over Texas Red, 126-111? In fact, AP got less than 50% of all the votes cast for 2-yr-old Champion.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

hmmm. You want a yes/no answer from Rollo Tomasi, but you avoided my question to you. Let me paraphrase it: If the close voting for 2014 Juvenile Champion had gone the other way, and Texas Red had won it, would that mean that American Pharoah would have a smaller chance to win the TC, in your opinion?

You've written that AP is "a stone cold cinch" to win the Belmont. How much of that is due to his squeaking out a 53%/47% win over Texas Red, 126-111? In fact, AP got less than 50% of all the votes cast for 2-yr-old Champion.

So you want a yes no respond to a hypothetical question? If AP hadn't won the two year award for best Juvy colt he would had to overcome a 0/22 historical statistic and theoretically be very much up against history. I would suggest that given his actual form I would not be nearly are convinced he would be successful in Belmont. History is not to be dismissed as decades of situations tend to even out many a variable.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by freddymo

So you want a yes no respond to a hypothetical question? If AP hadn't won the two year award for best Juvy colt he would had to overcome a 0/22 historical statistic and theoretically be very much up against history. I would suggest that given his actual form I would not be nearly are convinced he would be successful in Belmont. History is not to be dismissed as decades of situations tend to even out many a variable.

As opposed to the 0-15 historical statistic from modern times when horses are bred-trained and campaigned differently that he is up against.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by jms62

As opposed to the 0-15 historical statistic from modern times when horses are bred-trained and campaigned differently that he is up against.

Yes none of them were 2 year old champs. Easy Goer was but never won either Derby or Preakness

[FATPIANO]

Originally Posted by freddymo

Yes none of them were 2 year old champs. Easy Goer was but never won either Derby or Preakness

You say AP is a lock

Well In My Opinion

The Bid was a lock
Sunday Silence was a lock
Smarty Jones was a lock
Big Brown was a lock
California Chrome was a lock


There is NO lock in Horse racing, especially in The Belmont, anything can and will happen, if AP wins, congrats, but BETTER horses have come to Belmont as a LOCK and went home empty handed..

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by jms62

As opposed to the 0-15 historical statistic from modern times when horses are bred-trained and campaigned differently that he is up against.

Correct

[Dunbar]

Originally Posted by freddymo

So you want a yes no respond to a hypothetical question? If AP hadn't won the two year award for best Juvy colt he would had to overcome a 0/22 historical statistic and theoretically be very much up against history. I would suggest that given his actual form I would not be nearly are convinced he would be successful in Belmont. History is not to be dismissed as decades of situations tend to even out many a variable.

So, if AP wins the TC, it'll probably be because 8 voters (out of 265 total votes) voted for AP instead of Texas Red. (Otherwise, AP would have had a much smaller chance to win.)

I wish I knew who to thank!

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

So, if AP wins the TC, it'll probably be because 8 voters (out of 265 total votes) voted for AP instead of Texas Red. (Otherwise, AP would have had a much smaller chance to win.)

I wish I knew who to thank!

You can spin it that way but I wouldnt chose to too.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by Dunbar

So, if AP wins the TC, it'll probably be because 8 voters (out of 265 total votes) voted for AP instead of Texas Red. (Otherwise, AP would have had a much smaller chance to win.)

I wish I knew who to thank!

7 of 8.. In other words 2 year old champs for win first 2 legs are a cinch in Belmont