unions killing jobs...

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

Perhaps (again) raising a family is not the best thing for you if that is your salary.

If you are unable to talk about the subject matter you brought up in an intelligent and objective fashion, don't degenerate to silly ad hominem attacks.

Tell us - what annual income do you think is sufficient to raise a family of 4 nowadays?

And I wanted to ask you, as you said:

Since there are no mathematical or scientific methods for measuring a teachers success or ability,

What do you call measuring percentage of students that advance to the next grade, the results of standardized testing on state, national and internation levels, percentage of students graduating and gaining admittance to which colleges, etc?

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by Riot

If you are unable to talk about the subject matter you brought up in an intelligent and objective fashion, don't degenerate to silly ad hominem attacks.

Tell us - what annual income do you think is sufficient to raise a family of 4 nowadays?

That is completely based on where you live. In Denver, my current home, 60-80K should be plenty, you will not be in high cotton but will be comfortable. In the area of NJ I grew up in 45K puts at the top of the earnings list for sure. In the next town over in NJ you would need 100-140K to be OK. In Kentucky or West Virginia or most rural areas in the mid-west I would think 50-60K should be fine.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

That is completely based on where you live. In Denver, my current home, 60-80K should be plenty, you will not be in high cotton but will be comfortable.

What percentage of teachers within the city limits of Denver, Colorado, earn $80K a year?

In the area of NJ I grew up in 45K puts at the top of the earnings list for sure. In the next town over in NJ you would need 100-140K to be OK. In Kentucky or West Virginia or most rural areas in the mid-west I would think 50-60K should be fine.

As incomes for families of four?

It's easy when you guess, isn't it What you said previously is that $45K for a teacher was a good enough salary to raise a family of four. But even you say it is not, above.

Then you said that is just a starting salary. So how many teachers in that town in NJ earn 100-140K? or 60K in West Virginia?

Look: you think 80% of teachers are freeloading incompetents, with great salaries and benefits, and teachers unions enable it. You said teachers unions have destroyed the majority of schools in this country. I say that's wrong. We should just leave it at that.

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by Riot

What percentage of teachers within the city limits of Denver, Colorado, earn $80K a year?



As incomes for families of four?

It's easy when you guess, isn't it

Master +30 past step 7 so probably in the neighborhood of 50-60% of Denver public school teachers.

I never felt I made enough money to support a family of four and maintain the lifestyle I enjoy, therefore guessing is my only option since my wife and I have chosen not to parent without the money to back it up. I know the following as fact; what I was raised on and where, what my employees that have families get paid, I know what I pay them and where they live.
The Denver numbers are based on facts.
The NJ numbers are based on friends with families and their estimated (or actual in some cases) salaries since I know what they do for a living.

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by Riot

What percentage of teachers within the city limits of Denver, Colorado, earn $80K a year?



As incomes for families of four?

It's easy when you guess, isn't it What you said previously is that $45K for a teacher was a good enough salary to raise a family of four. But even you say it is not, above.

Then you said that is just a starting salary. So how many teachers in that town in NJ earn 100-140K? or 60K in West Virginia?

Look: you think 80% of teachers are freeloading incompetents, with great salaries and benefits, and teachers unions enable it. You said teachers unions have destroyed the majority of schools in this country. I say that's wrong. We should just leave it at that.

Show me. I have said over and over if that is your salary perhaps you should choose to not have a family.

[Riot]

And this is ME, posting:

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

Show me. I have said over and over if that is your salary perhaps you should choose to not have a family.

Again, what do my personal circumstances have to do with teachers being overpaid freeloaders or not?
--------------
And this is me, too (I'm not on my own computer)

Posted by Clip-Clop
Those are methods for measure a schools performance. These results are very skewed based on location, income of the district, working parents (both, one or neither) etc. And I think they are the standards of the No Child Act.

Yes, but those individual tests measure a child's performance. And a teacher's performance can be measured upon the success of their students that they teach. And yes, such results can be skewed.

You said such measures don't exist. I am simply pointing out they do.

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by Riot

And this is ME, posting:



Again, what do my personal circumstances have to do with teachers being overpaid freeloaders or not?
--------------
And this is me, too (I'm not on my own computer)



Yes, but those individual tests measure a child's performance. And a teacher's performance can be measured upon the success of their students that they teach. And yes, such results can be skewed.

You said such measures don't exist. I am simply pointing out they do.

"You" and "your" was referring to the collective "you" (those teachers that make 45K).

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by Riot

What do you call measuring percentage of students that advance to the next grade, the results of standardized testing on state, national and internation levels, percentage of students graduating and gaining admittance to which colleges, etc?

Those are methods for measure a schools performance. These results are very skewed based on location, income of the district, working parents (both, one or neither) etc. And I think they are the standards of the No Child Act.

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by Mike2456

Yes, but those individual tests measure a child's performance. And a teacher's performance can be measured upon the success of their students that they teach. And yes, such results can be skewed.

You said such measures don't exist. I am simply pointing out they do.

The particulars of the measurement as stated above allow for far too many variables to transfer the success or failure onto the teacher, this makes it very hard to consider it either mathematical or scientific.
I was a A-B student for the most part (I was an extra-ordinary test taker though) , I learned more from the better teachers but I was going to test the same either way. One example but there are plenty of really smart kids who cannot test at all.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

The particulars of the measurement as stated above allow for far too many variables to transfer the success or failure onto the teacher, this makes it very hard to consider it either mathematical or scientific.
I was a A-B student for the most part (I was an extra-ordinary test taker though) , I learned more from the better teachers but I was going to test the same either way. One example but there are plenty of really smart kids who cannot test at all.

I don't think that assessing teacher performance is any more difficult than assessing the performance of other professions. The position that teacher performance is simply impossible to assess objectively doesn't hold up. If you have two classrooms in the same school, both teaching third grade math using the same textbooks and cirriculae, and one classroom of students scores consistently better on the same tests than the second classroom, you bet the first teacher should be considered objectively better.

But my point, going back to the original discussion, remains that I think that demonizing the vast majority of teachers in the US as incompetent and useless overpaid union thugs is absurd.

That meme is simply the current stated political ploy of the Republican party via ALEC and the RGA on the state level, since last year, in order to attempt to de-unionize school districts and thus privatize them.

People won't give up local control of their school districts unless they are convinced that the current situation is untenable. This is how the RGA, ALEC are trying to convince them.

The proof lives in example, Wisconsin is a good one: the unions agreed to every budget cut necessary, but the Republican governor still busted the union.

It's not about budgets and deficits. It's about union-busting as the first step.

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by Riot

I don't think that assessing teacher performance is any more difficult than assessing the performance of other professions. The position that teacher performance is simply impossible to assess objectively doesn't hold up. If you have two classrooms in the same school, both teaching third grade math using the same textbooks and cirriculae, and one classroom of students scores consistently better on the same tests than the second classroom, you bet the first teacher should be considered objectively better.

But my point, going back to the original discussion, remains that I think that demonizing the vast majority of teachers in the US as incompetent and useless overpaid union thugs is absurd.

That meme is simply the current stated political ploy of the Republican party via ALEC and the RGA on the state level, since last year, in order to attempt to de-unionize school districts and thus privatize them.

People won't give up local control of their school districts unless they are convinced that the current situation is untenable. This is how the RGA, ALEC are trying to convince them.

The proof lives in example, Wisconsin is a good one: the unions agreed to every budget cut necessary, but the Republican governor still busted the union.

It's not about budgets and deficits. It's about union-busting as the first step.

They were done a favor, individual bargaining is a far better practice.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Clip-Clop

They were done a favor, individual bargaining is a far better practice.

At least you admit it really is all about union-busting, and Gov. Walker was lying to his constituents.

Ah, big brother government - Republicans - telling individuals what is best for their own interests, and limiting their freedoms.

Some in the far right simply cannot see their hypocrisy.

You could raise a family with $45,000. This country was built by immigrants who had large families and lived in poverty.

Materialism is bullshit. Love is free.

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by Riot

At least you admit it really is all about union-busting, and Gov. Walker was lying to his constituents.

Ah, big brother government - Republicans - telling individuals what is best for their own interests, and limiting their freedoms.

Some in the far right simply cannot see their hypocrisy.

Unions still exist. Not busted, just in a better spot now.

Big Brother government. All sides! Telling government and private sector employees what is best for everyone, especially the voting block that favors them.

I know and let it be know where I stand on any and all issues, just ask. There are no politicians I know of who share my views.