CRIST: P5 for Saratoga in state govt. procedural quandry

[Kasept]

Pick five wager hamstrung by red tape

http://www.drf.com/news/steven-crist...ummer-saratoga

Will there be a new, low-takeout pick-five when Saratoga opens? Fans are clamoring for it, track officials want it, but the heavy hand of government bureaucracy may thwart it.

The short explanation is that the New York Racing Association has received approval to offer the bet, but for technical reasons it would have to be conducted under the pre-1996 rules for multirace bets, which did not include a provision for what happens when a race is switched from grass to dirt because of heavy rain after the wager has closed. When that happens in a pick four or pick six, the race is declared an “all,” since it would be unfair to stick bettors with selections made for the wrong surface.

Obviously, the same should apply in a pick five, but unless someone in government steps in with some scissors to get through procedural red tape, there could be a nightmarish situation – surface-switched races declared “alls” in the pick four and pick six but not in the pick five. This would create chaotic confusion among bettors and justified howls of unfairness from the betting public. It is unclear if the track would even want to offer the wager under those conditions.

There is absolutely no difference of opinion that this would be an intolerable situation and that there has to be a way around it. We will know by next Friday whether common sense can be made to prevail on the smallest and simplest point, or whether the dysfunctional relationship between racing and government in New York has reached perhaps its lowest point ever.

[parsixfarms]

Does this really surprise anybody? While having the "all" remedy for pic-4s and pic-6s in the event of a surface switch is not the rule in other states, NY's archane racing rules still force daily double and pic-3 players to ride those wagers out with their original selections even when there is a surface switch. Even though this quirk in the rules has been brought to their attention, NY officials have done nothing for years to change the "unfair" double and pic-3 rules.

[Alabama Stakes]

In New York, will the pick 5 destroy the pick 6 as we know it ?

[jms62]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

Does this really surprise anybody? While having the "all" remedy for pic-4s and pic-6s in the event of a surface switch is not the rule in other states, NY's archane racing rules still force daily double and pic-3 players to ride those wagers out with their original selections even when there is a surface switch. Even though this quirk in the rules has been brought to their attention, NY officials have done nothing for years to change the "unfair" double and pic-3 rules.

And their Dead Heat rule.

[Scav]

Originally Posted by Alabama Stakes

In New York, will the pick 5 destroy the pick 6 as we know it ?

IMO, the P5 in NY will be massive. Its a shame there is so much tape to cut through.

[pointman]

Originally Posted by Alabama Stakes

In New York, will the pick 5 destroy the pick 6 as we know it ?

No.

[tanner12oz]

Originally Posted by Alabama Stakes

In New York, will the pick 5 destroy the pick 6 as we know it ?

yes and the 50 cent tri will kill the 1 tri

[joeydb]

Steve, do we know if they have put the technical means in place (software and processing capability) to turn on the Pick 5 wager if they do get the red tape resolved?

I'm definitely interested in playing it.

[Alabama Stakes]

Originally Posted by pointman

No.

elaborate

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by joeydb

Steve, do we know if they have put the technical means in place (software and processing capability) to turn on the Pick 5 wager if they do get the red tape resolved?

I'm definitely interested in playing it.

The tote programming is no problem. They'll be ready as soon as it's a go.

[ateamstupid]

I, for one, am shocked that NYRA tried to do something good for the horseplayer and got stymied by the state.

[pointman]

Originally Posted by Alabama Stakes

elaborate

Sure. The pk6 player is different then the pk4 player and specifically goes for the big pool with the large $2 minimum. If anything, the pk4 pool will be more affected since the pk4 player is more likely to jump into a 50 cent pk5 minimum then the pk6 player. As a pk4 player I am one that will definitely jump into the pk5 where you can still put in a moderate size ticket and go after a monster score.

Where it will have a small effect is possibly on the pk6 carryover days where some pk4 players tend to jump into the pk6 pool in hopes of a big score but may be more reluctant to do so with the option of a pk5. However, the addition of this wager should add to overall daily handle on all wagers.

Also, I still have not heard where the pk5 will be placed, whether it will be in the last 5 races and compete directly with the pk6 or if it will be California style on the early races. At Saratoga it probably will not matter since most fields are full, but I hope they place it in the last 5 races as they tend to be fuller fields at Belmont and Aqueduct and will yield better opportunities.

Originally Posted by ateamstupid

I, for one, am shocked that NYRA tried to do something good for the horseplayer and got stymied by the state.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by pointman

Sure. The pk6 player is different then the pk4 player and specifically goes for the big pool with the large $2 minimum. If anything, the pk4 pool will be more affected since the pk4 player is more likely to jump into a 50 cent pk5 minimum then the pk6 player. As a pk4 player I am one that will definitely jump into the pk5 where you can still put in a moderate size ticket and go after a monster score.

Agreed, the better argument is that it would cannibalize the Pick 4 pool (either early or late depending on where they position it), but even then, I think it'll be a net positive. I always give myself a bigger budget for a Pick 5 than for the parallel Pick 4, so the track is getting more handle from me over time if the Pick 5 is an option. The Pick 6 player, especially on non-carryover days, is basically a different species than the Pick 4/5 player.

[MaTH716]

I'm interested on where it would be placed. I don't think they could do it early either, besides the Aqu & Bel situations, you have the jump races at Saratoga. No one wants to deal with that in the sequance.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

I'm interested on where it would be placed. I don't think they could do it early either, besides the Aqu & Bel situations, you have the jump races at Saratoga. No one wants to deal with that in the sequance.

I think you have to do it from Races 1-5. If handle wanes on jump days, fine, that's a grand total of 5 days per year.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

I think you have to do it from Races 1-5. If handle wanes on jump days, fine, that's a grand total of 5 days per year.

I agree. If the idea is that the super-exotic wagers like the pic-5/6 generate additional handle by getting players to handicap multi-race sequences, it makes sense to have the pic-5 early in the card, and let the pic-6 do the same for the tail end of the card.

[pweizer]

Payoffs have not been hampered by having it on the first five races in California and they usually have very small fields for many of those races. As long as it has the low takeout that the CA one does, it will be a great bet.

Paul

[10 pnt move up]

Originally Posted by pweizer

Payoffs have not been hampered by having it on the first five races in California and they usually have very small fields for many of those races. As long as it has the low takeout that the CA one does, it will be a great bet.

Paul

Its a combination of takeout and affordability more than anything else. People say takeout does not matter, some say that field size trumps anything in terms of attracting wagering dollars, but here we are with 5 horse fields yet a bet that is flourishing and setting a national trend.

[joeydb]

This would be a regular, low takeout, low bet unit pick-5 right? Has anyone uttered the word "jackpot" because I am really not crazy about those.

[ateamstupid]

Originally Posted by joeydb

This would be a regular, low takeout, low bet unit pick-5 right? Has anyone uttered the word "jackpot" because I am really not crazy about those.

Yes. No jackpot nonsense.