ACA Supreme Court Tuesday

[Riot]

Judges asked hard questions. As they should. Good analysis here:

http://www.tnr.com/blog/jonathan-coh...oberts-kennedy

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/s...170042500.html

I want to know if anyone can protest in front of the Supreme Court? I'd like to see the Occupy protestors attempt it.

So what I'm saying is look at those paid shills for Obama. How shameless.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by Riot

Judges asked hard questions. As they should. Good analysis here:

http://www.tnr.com/blog/jonathan-coh...oberts-kennedy

Yeah, but this is depressing. From the article:

"One other note: As somebody who knows the policy issues, the hearing was incredibly frustrating to watch. Both judges and lawyers, on both sides, seemed not to understand the specifics of the health care market and why it would (or would not, depending on your legal philosophy) make the mandate constitutional. But, of course, that's a pretty good argument for why judges should leave legislative judgment to the legislative branch."

Nothing better than people who don't understand an issue getting final say on it.

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

Yeah, but this is depressing. From the article:

"One other note: As somebody who knows the policy issues, the hearing was incredibly frustrating to watch. Both judges and lawyers, on both sides, seemed not to understand the specifics of the health care market and why it would (or would not, depending on your legal philosophy) make the mandate constitutional. But, of course, that's a pretty good argument for why judges should leave legislative judgment to the legislative branch."

Nothing better than people who don't understand an issue getting final say on it.

I'd like to see all of Congress take a test on Obamacare. Spare the sour grapes routine. Take the loss like a champ.

[Danzig]

http://nbcpolitics.msnbc.msn.com/_ne...h-care-mandate


just read this on msnbc, not looking too promising for obama's signature legislation according to the writer.
but who knows?

Strike it down and then vote him out. At this point you could put Curly from The Three Stooges in office. At least he wouldn't race bait.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Danzig

http://nbcpolitics.msnbc.msn.com/_ne...h-care-mandate


just read this on msnbc, not looking too promising for obama's signature legislation according to the writer.
but who knows?

I've read "court watcher" reports today that look now like it will be a 6-3 win, and a 5-4 defeat.

That the judges are asking very tough questions can mean they are clearing all doubt from their minds, or doubling down on what they are concerned about.

We won't know until June.

I'm more optimistic, after reading stuff about today, that it will be 5-4 or 6-3 in favor. If it is overturned, we must go to national single payer to control our skyrocking healthcare costs, so some on the far left are hoping for a defeat. The judges did acknowledge that in the discussion today, which points in favor of upholding the mandate.

Hah single payer. You're living in fantasyland. They don't have enough printer ink at the treasury to maintain that monstrosity.

It's over. Best case scenario is they let it slide and it fails miserably on its own. The people who don't work for exempt companies will be forced to buy their insurance on the exchange or face a tax.

What are they going to do about jobs? Pay isn't increasing. Are they going to throw everyone who doesn't pay the tax in debtor's prison?

Good luck trying to bleed a turnip.

Originally Posted by Riot

If it is overturned, we must go to national single payer to control our skyrocking healthcare costs, so some on the far left are hoping for a defeat. The judges did acknowledge that in the discussion today, which points in favor of upholding the mandate.

The other thing in favor of upholding the mandate is that the health insurance companies have lots of skin in the game; they would be devastated if the SCOTUS strikes down the mandate, but lets the rest of Obamacare play on.

Listening to NPR tonight, their commentators thought that everything depended on Kennedy, the swing vote. Not a good day for the government.


Ocala Mike

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

I'd like to see all of Congress take a test on Obamacare. Spare the sour grapes routine. Take the loss like a champ.

there are myriad issues with health care, we all know that. but this issue would be best handled by the states, which is where it belongs. arkansas for example has arkids, which works much better than medicare.
the attempts on deciding who needs premium supplements/grants based on income alone is a bad move. what is good money in one state or region is not in another. a family of four making close to 90k annually here or in texas, missouri, etc probably wouldn't have a need for help paying their insurance-in new york city, they would need assistance. and that's just one of the many issues with the health care law. does our way of doing things medically need changing? absolutely. but obamacare isn't the cure.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Danzig

there are myriad issues with health care, we all know that. but this issue would be best handled by the states, which is where it belongs. arkansas for example has arkids, which works much better than medicare.
the attempts on deciding who needs premium supplements/grants based on income alone is a bad move. what is good money in one state or region is not in another. a family of four making close to 90k annually here or in texas, missouri, etc probably wouldn't have a need for help paying their insurance-in new york city, they would need assistance. and that's just one of the many issues with the health care law. does our way of doing things medically need changing? absolutely. but obamacare isn't the cure.

That's why Obamacare allows and encourages each state to set up a state-specific, individualized exchange.

Vermont, for example, is going with a more advanced single payer system as the state Obamacare exchange.

BTW, the Republican states that are refusing to do so, will get the generic federal "one-size-fits-all" exchange.

Here's detail, with a map, from January on where each state is in the exchange setup process: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/0...ernors-exposed

Yes, I wish the public were far better educated on Obamacare. Because at this point, if it is overturned (other than the mandate alone), every single American looses current protections it has given them against insurance company consumer abuses.

Originally Posted by Danzig

there are myriad issues with health care, we all know that. but this issue would be best handled by the states, which is where it belongs. arkansas for example has arkids, which works much better than medicare.
the attempts on deciding who needs premium supplements/grants based on income alone is a bad move. what is good money in one state or region is not in another. a family of four making close to 90k annually here or in texas, missouri, etc probably wouldn't have a need for help paying their insurance-in new york city, they would need assistance. and that's just one of the many issues with the health care law. does our way of doing things medically need changing? absolutely. but obamacare isn't the cure.

The state of Kentucky has a similar program for low income families. I believe it's like medicaid. Heck a startling percentage of Kentuckians are getting a subsidy on their prescriptions where they pay a few dollars for name brand. Guess who is paying that?

It's insanity. Eventually the rent comes due. They may be able to kick the can another decade but at some point it's all going to collapse.

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

The state of Kentucky has a similar program for low income families. I believe it's like medicaid. Heck a startling percentage of Kentuckians are getting a subsidy on their prescriptions where they pay a few dollars for name brand. Guess who is paying that?

It's insanity. Eventually the rent comes due. They may be able to kick the can another decade but at some point it's all going to collapse.

Have you not learned that math and logic have no place here?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

Yeah, but this is depressing. From the article:

"One other note: As somebody who knows the policy issues, the hearing was incredibly frustrating to watch. Both judges and lawyers, on both sides, seemed not to understand the specifics of the health care market and why it would (or would not, depending on your legal philosophy) make the mandate constitutional. But, of course, that's a pretty good argument for why judges should leave legislative judgment to the legislative branch."

Nothing better than people who don't understand an issue getting final say on it.

lol
never thought i'd see someone accuse the justices of being too stupid about something to make a proper ruling.
but really, the details aren't what matters-it's what that old, moldy piece of paper says that matters. and rightfully so. as long as the justices are able to know what's constitutional, that's all that matters.

I have a preview of the ruling this June...































CRINKLE







































TRASH CAN

[Danzig]

was watching msnbc this morning while doing my daily penance on the elliptical and treadmill...they said the obamacare bill is 2700 pages long, not a 1000. that's the eqivalent of reading war and peace, the pickwick papers, and les miserables...but would feel like you were trying to read james joyces ulysses if it was 2700 pages long. good god. no way those senators and congressmen read it.
they also said something interesting-that hillary clinton had the individual mandate in her plan, and obama was against it then. my how things change.

at any rate, people don't know what all is contained-but they know they don't like being forced to purchase something. the WH is arguing that everyone engages in the health care system, hence the commerce clause would apply...however, everyone doesn't engage in the system.
knowing people up to 400% of federal poverty levels would get subsidized, both for premium and for stop loss is enough to make you go huh? that rule would include most arkansas citizens. all but the very highest income in the top 1-2% of households. you guys want to subsidize 99% of this state?

the healthiest group of people-they're the ones obama is forcing companies to keep on their parents policies til age 26-how does that make sense?
medicaid is already bankrupting state budgets-how can they afford for that cost to double since the qualifying rules would change from 70% above poverty level to the new 120% of poverty level?


the only way to fix medical, and get everyone covered is single payer. all this convoluted bs is just that, bs. it fixes nothing. it is unaffordable. but the pols are too chicken to do what really needs doing.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Danzig

the only way to fix medical, and get everyone covered is single payer. all this convoluted bs is just that, bs. it fixes nothing. it is unaffordable. but the pols are too chicken to do what really needs doing.

The GOP had an uncooperative hissy fit on every single thing this president was trying to do from day one. So he compromised by going to a 100%, straight-GOP-health plan from the 1990's, that had already been proven to work, in practice, and lower insurance costs in Mass. There is nothing wrong with this plan. They added more consumer protections. Yet the GOP still had a hissy fit, over their own damn plan.

For goodness sakes: Paul Ryans current budget to destroy Medicare moves it from a government non-profit program, to a privatized for-profit voucher program that is an exact duplicate of the ACA! And he touts all the financial benefits.

The ACA a 100% GOP plan, proven to work in practice in Mass., yet the GOP still didn't put up one vote for it, because they are more concerned with sabotaging this president than helping the citizens of this country.

This was the best the citizens could get against the 100% obstruction of the GOP against this president. Health care is an economic issue, it's out of control here, it's driving this country to poverty. The president was absolutely right to address it.

This president addressed our health care disaster, like every single president, Republican or Democrat, since Johnson has tried to, and finally got something passed with not just a simple senate majority as it needed, but with 60 votes - a clear and overwhelming majority.

The current incarnation of the GOP is done as a political party. They will have an overwhelming disaster this fall, then the brahmins of the party will take back the reins from the John Birch Society/Tea Party/Evangelicals, and try to recover from 2016 on.

[horseofcourse]

the ACA is nothing really different than what exists other than forcing people to by something they can't afford. It needs to be eliminated. Health insurance companies need to be eliminated on the grounds of common human decency...maybe not eliminated completely, but a massive amount of it. It comes down to this question, should basic health care for a sick child be provided for in this country?? It's a simple yes or no question. If you don't like the ACA, you certainly don't like the present system I wouldn't think. As someone with kids I want everyone treated. If an illegal imigrant is walking around with a conageous disease, I want them treated, no questions asked. I really don't understand the concept of anyone wanting anyone sick just walking around. The ACA solves nothing whatsoever with problems with the way things are. The mandate is pretty ridiculous for the most part.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by horseofcourse

the ACA is nothing really different than what exists other than forcing people to by something they can't afford. It needs to be eliminated. Health insurance companies need to be eliminated on the grounds of common human decency...maybe not eliminated completely, but a massive amount of it. It comes down to this question, should basic health care for a sick child be provided for in this country?? It's a simple yes or no question. If you don't like the ACA, you certainly don't like the present system I wouldn't think. As someone with kids I want everyone treated. If an illegal imigrant is walking around with a conageous disease, I want them treated, no questions asked. I really don't understand the concept of anyone wanting anyone sick just walking around. The ACA solves nothing whatsoever with problems with the way things are. The mandate is pretty ridiculous for the most part.

no, it's different. it's a bad attempt at fixing a bad problem.

single payer. that's what's needed. not that it would ultimately end up a great system-but then everyone would be covered and it wouldn't be a convoluted crazy mess.