NY Task Force on Racehorse Health & Safety Report, Reccos

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

For the most part normal, everyday horses have no problem racing every few weeks. The idea that "drugs" have a negative effect on horses or doesnt allow them to run as much as they used to is stupid.

Even lower level horses don't run nearly as often as they once did. I realize it is impossible to discuss drug use with trainers. I just forget sometimes.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Even lower level horses don't run nearly as often as they once did. I realize it is impossible to discuss drug use with trainers. I just forget sometimes.

Oh that's right, I forgot that you already know everything about the subject and all us trainers are just too biased to discuss it.

You make statements like "Lower level horses dont run as much as they used to" and I am supposed to take that as proof that somehow "drugs" are the chief cause ignoring all of the other changes that have occured in the game?

The irony of your "impossible to discuss drugs with trainers" insult is that you come off as a typical internet troll who would rather gossip with other likeminded rumor mongers as opposed to trying to educate yourself on the topic. Suit yourself but people who are willing to not look at other points of view especially coming from trainers who you know are credible on the subject and have a far greater knowledge base are as much of a problem in this sport as the issues themselves.

I am probably as conservative in use of meds as most trainers but understand that racehorses have plenty of issues that must be dealt with especially with the lower level type of horses with which I often have in my barn. There are several owners here that could attest to that. This topic is so warped in the publics view because of misinformation and false innuendo that is taken as fact. Congrats on following the company line. I'm interested in finding out after all is said and done and this big crackdown on "drugs" fails to stem the tide on all the negative trends in the sport what will you blame then?

[cmorioles]

Okay Chuck, I'm just a troll.

[outofthebox]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Even lower level horses don't run nearly as often as they once did. I realize it is impossible to discuss drug use with trainers. I just forget sometimes.

I have an average of 20 horses in my barn throughout the year. We are heading into the 10th month of the year and i have 81 starts. Do the math, not a good stat of starts per stalls..Problem here in La. is there are to many horses at mdn and low level claimers. I would love to run these low level claimers every three weeks, but it's nearly impossible..

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Okay Chuck, I'm just a troll.

You ask questions but dont like the answers so it is impossible to discuss drugs with trainers? You have an agenda against drugs despite seemingly not understanding a great deal about what you are against. You dont respond to points brought up in posts but either pick them apart looking for exactness in quotes or simply dismiss them. Agree or disagree? What point have I made that was untrue or unreasonable? The fact of the matter is that without defining "drugs", being for or against them is an inane argument.

Are you against surgeries? Are you against ulcer or digestive tract medications? Are you against Adequan/legend/polyglycan or other drugs that help maintain joint health? Are you against anti-inflamatory drugs? Are you against nsaids? Are you against antibiotics? Are you against allergy medications? Are you against immune stimulants? Are you against injected vitamins? Are you against electrolytes? What about circulatory drugs that help horses with foot issues? What about medications for colic or founder? IRAP therapy? Please tell me where do you draw the line between ok and not ok? Sound silly? Well 95% of positive tests come from medications like these and it has nothing to do with the "culture of drugs" and way more to do with the insane way that the sport is regulated in regards to allowable levels, withdrawl times and a total lack of transparency by state racing comissions and labs.

What exactly is the plan of the paceadvantage platform? Stop treating issues? Ignore them? Go holistic? Faith heal? Or that nonsense I hear all the time, give them time off? So everytime anything goes wrong with a horse we just give them time off? We have complaints that horses dont race enough already but we are supposed to just keep them in a stall or turn out in a field till all is well? Please enlighten me as to what all the non-trainers have come up with to solve the drug problem.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You ask questions but dont like the answers so it is impossible to discuss drugs with trainers? You have an agenda against drugs despite seemingly not understanding a great deal about what you are against. You dont respond to points brought up in posts but either pick them apart looking for exactness in quotes or simply dismiss them. Agree or disagree? What point have I made that was untrue or unreasonable? The fact of the matter is that without defining "drugs", being for or against them is an inane argument.

Are you against surgeries? Are you against ulcer or digestive tract medications? Are you against Adequan/legend/polyglycan or other drugs that help maintain joint health? Are you against anti-inflamatory drugs? Are you against nsaids? Are you against antibiotics? Are you against allergy medications? Are you against immune stimulants? Are you against injected vitamins? Are you against electrolytes? What about circulatory drugs that help horses with foot issues? What about medications for colic or founder? IRAP therapy? Please tell me where do you draw the line between ok and not ok? Sound silly? Well 95% of positive tests come from medications like these and it has nothing to do with the "culture of drugs" and way more to do with the insane way that the sport is regulated in regards to allowable levels, withdrawl times and a total lack of transparency by state racing comissions and labs.

What exactly is the plan of the paceadvantage platform? Stop treating issues? Ignore them? Go holistic? Faith heal? Or that nonsense I hear all the time, give them time off? So everytime anything goes wrong with a horse we just give them time off? We have complaints that horses dont race enough already but we are supposed to just keep them in a stall or turn out in a field till all is well? Please enlighten me as to what all the non-trainers have come up with to solve the drug problem.

Paceadvantage platform? You do know I'm just a poster there only, right? I can moderate posts when people get out of line, nothing more. I have nothing else to do with that site other than it is the one where I post most.

As for the drug thing, did you notice nobody here posted the Bloodhorse article about 2yo horses racing without Lasix? I'm quite sure you didn't miss it. Turns out a very small percentage of those horses showed the slightest trace of bleeding. Yet, we are told it is needed in the vast majority of horses as a preventive drug.

Many trainers (and I have no idea if that includes you) do what the vet tells them to do, nothing more. They just echo what they are told as if experts in equine medicine. Believe it or not, there are plenty of unscrupulous vets out there that use trainers and do unnecessary things. My opinion is there are way too many tracks running too many days, and because of that we have plenty of unqualified people training horses.

There is a lot of ugly stuff that goes on with horses, and that was all my original post was meant to say. I mean how can you possibly defend giving horses clenbuterol every day without even knowing if it would have benefits or not? That is just sad. We can all bitch and moan about the articles in the New York Times and in the NYRA report, but the fact is there is plenty of dirty laundry to be aired, even if all that was written isn't completely true or exaggerated.

Since you made it personal, lets make a deal. I'll stop complaining about drug use when you stop whining about other trainers getting too many horses, i.e. they should give them to you instead.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Paceadvantage platform? You do know I'm just a poster there only, right? I can moderate posts when people get out of line, nothing more. I have nothing else to do with that site other than it is the one where I post most.

As for the drug thing, did you notice nobody here posted the Bloodhorse article about 2yo horses racing without Lasix? I'm quite sure you didn't miss it. Turns out a very small percentage of those horses showed the slightest trace of bleeding. Yet, we are told it is needed in the vast majority of horses as a preventive drug.

Many trainers (and I have no idea if that includes you) do what the vet tells them to do, nothing more. They just echo what they are told as if experts in equine medicine. Believe it or not, there are plenty of unscrupulous vets out there that use trainers and do unnecessary things. My opinion is there are way too many tracks running too many days, and because of that we have plenty of unqualified people training horses.

There is a lot of ugly stuff that goes on with horses, and that was all my original post was meant to say. I mean how can you possibly defend giving horses clenbuterol every day without even knowing if it would have benefits or not? That is just sad. We can all bitch and moan about the articles in the New York Times and in the NYRA report, but the fact is there is plenty of dirty laundry to be aired, even if all that was written isn't completely true or exaggerated.

Since you made it personal, lets make a deal. I'll stop complaining about drug use when you stop whining about other trainers getting too many horses, i.e. they should give them to you instead.

You made it personal dude. For some reason people like you think that trainers can just be insulted without recourse because we are all drug addled, cheats or idiots depending on what our win % is. I would think that I have established the credentials to speak on topics concerning thorghbred racehorses, matters of their health, proper and ethical treatment of racehorses and matters pertaining to the racing office without being disregarded as a biased moron. Not to mention a willingness to speak frankly about topics that many in the game want to ignore.

You want to bring up the 2 yo lasix topic as though we are doing some sort of study here and are ignoring pertinent information. Only someone who is frighteningly naive would think that the people who are promoting the elimination of lasix would be coming up with any other conclusion than they arent seeing much bleeding. But of course young, well bred 2 year olds are of course the least likely horses to bleed but hey you have a handful of non bleeders so of course you are entirely correct about everything you say about lasix.

Many trainers do what the vet tells them to do? Or is it the trainers tell the vets what to do? Of course you learn these things by reading them in reports and other massaged sources of information and us people who are actually doing the job everyday have practical experience and forgive me for laughing when you want to lecture me on vet/trainer practices.

Your opinion on way too many tracks running too many days leading to too many unqualified people is interesting but since the thread was originally about breakdowns at NYRA which is more or less the top circuit in the country I guess your solution wouldnt have had much impact right? Because I'm doubt there are a bunch of guys at River Downs that chose to go there instead of Saratoga and hey lets just get rid of them and drugs and everything will be great again? Yeah sure.

There is a lot of ugly stuff that goes on with a lot of things. The idea that more is being done now than in the past is nonsense. The fact is that there is less bs happening now than there was years ago but because of advances in information availability the perception is that the sky is falling. You know as well as I do that 20 years ago the frog juice positives get no play in most of the thoroughbred world. There was a similar scandal in the 80's with elephant juice (etorphine) and yet I bet virtually no one even remembers that. They ran ringers at NYRA in the 70's. The top jockeys in NY were implicated on the cover of Sport Illustrated for fixing races and Vasquez was suspended a year. There was a guy named Preston King, check him out. Oscar Barrera. Gaspar. This is just in NY. What about the insurance scandals? What about Dr Harthill?

How can I defend giving clenbuterol? Seriously? You have zero knowledge of the medication or even racehorses in general but you are going to question me? How can i defend it? Easy, there is nothing wrong with giving horses clenbuterol. The funny thing is children with asthma are given clenbuterol, it is hardly a horse specific drug. I guess all those doctors are reprehensible as well?

Yeah and my opinion that the concentration of all the good horses in NY with a select few trainers is me actually secretly lobbying for those horses. It couldnt be common sense or an understanding of a history of the game or anything like that. Just jealousy. Because you know trainers can never voice an opinion on anything concerning horseracing because we are biased or jealous.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You made it personal dude. For some reason people like you think that trainers can just be insulted without recourse because we are all drug addled, cheats or idiots depending on what our win % is.

Before I read the rest of this diatribe, where did I insult you and make it personal before you called me a troll? Did saying I couldn't discuss drugs with a trainer really considered an insult?

I notice you ignored the PA thing. At least for once you realized you were off base.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Before I read the rest of this diatribe, where did I insult you and make it personal before you called me a troll? Did saying I couldn't discuss drugs with a trainer really considered an insult?

I notice you ignored the PA thing. At least for once you realized you were off base.

I make several points and you act as though you are above discussing the topic with me because I am a trainer? How is that not insulting?

You ignored virtually every point that I made and I didnt call you a troll, I said you come off like one. You are the one who is concerned with semantics. As for the paceadvantage thing who really cares? It was an off the cuff attempt at humor.

As for being off base that's nonsense. If I made some silly remark about speed figures or something that you have intimate knowledge of I find it hard to believe that you wouldnt be quick to comment or correct me. Seriously what did I say about the topic that you found to be incorrect?

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I make several points and you act as though you are above discussing the topic with me because I am a trainer? How is that not insulting?

You ignored virtually every point that I made and I didnt call you a troll, I said you come off like one. You are the one who is concerned with semantics. As for the paceadvantage thing who really cares? It was an off the cuff attempt at humor.

As for being off base that's nonsense. If I made some silly remark about speed figures or something that you have intimate knowledge of I find it hard to believe that you wouldnt be quick to comment or correct me. Seriously what did I say about the topic that you found to be incorrect?

This all started because I mentioned about using clenbuterol every day without knowing for sure it would be beneficial. If you don't see anything wrong with that, there just wasn't much to discuss because we'll never agree.

How is giving clenbuterol to a kid that has asthma remotely close to giving it to a horse because it might be beneficial, and doing it every day? If you want to argue that point, you'll need to do it with those that wrote the report. I don't think they are on any side of the drug issue. They just presented the facts.

Really, this sums up the whole thing:

How can I defend giving clenbuterol? Seriously? You have zero knowledge of the medication or even racehorses in general but you are going to question me?

You know nothing about me, or what I know, but on the other hand think you know everything about every subject. I know you are the tsar of Derby Trail. From now on I'll bow down to your greatness.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

This all started because I mentioned about using clenbuterol every day without knowing for sure it would be beneficial. If you don't see anything wrong with that, there just wasn't much to discuss because we'll never agree.

How is giving clenbuterol to a kid that has asthma remotely close to giving it to a horse because it might be beneficial, and doing it every day? If you want to argue that point, you'll need to do it with those that wrote the report. I don't think they are on any side of the drug issue. They just presented the facts.

Really, this sums up the whole thing:



You know nothing about me, or what I know, but on the other hand think you know everything about every subject. I know you are the tsar of Derby Trail. From now on I'll bow down to your greatness.

This is an incredible copout.

Your statement that I'm wrong and you are right about the use of clenbuterol on a daily basis drips with irony considering your last paragraph.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

This is an incredible copout.

Your statement that I'm wrong and you are right about the use of clenbuterol on a daily basis drips with irony considering your last paragraph.

I'm not the one that said clenbuterol should not be used every day. You obviously don't do it anymore, so it seems you actually agree.

"Investigators became concerned about clenbuterol when they found that some horses were getting it almost continually from their private veterinarians. Clenbuterol is approved only for the short-term treatment of respiratory disease, and is very effective. But when used in large amounts over a lengthy period, it builds muscle and can also cause health problems or death. "

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

I'm not the one that said clenbuterol should not be used every day. You obviously don't do it anymore, so it seems you actually agree.

"Investigators became concerned about clenbuterol when they found that some horses were getting it almost continually from their private veterinarians. Clenbuterol is approved only for the short-term treatment of respiratory disease, and is very effective. But when used in large amounts over a lengthy period, it builds muscle and can also cause health problems or death. "

No actually you seemed to infer that I was wrong for using it without knowing for sure if it would be beneficial.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

No actually you seemed to infer that I was wrong for using it without knowing for sure if it would be beneficial.

Personally I wouldn't do that, particularly for three or four months. Your owners told you it was OK I assume. They paid for it, not me. As an owner, I'd be pissed to find out I paid for the every day administration of a drug that does what the report purports long term. I'd be a bad owner though. I would ask too many questions.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Personally I wouldn't do that, particularly for three or four months. Your owners told you it was OK I assume. They paid for it, not me. As an owner, I'd be pissed to find out I paid for the every day administration of a drug that does what the report purports long term. I'd be a bad owner though. I would ask too many questions.

Let's just say that that particular owner was far more concerned with winning races than he is with pretty much anything else.

I have no problem with owners asking questions. Educated people are far better decision makers than people who are informed via Joe Drape.

The entire tone of that recent NYT piece that all these poor owners are being duped into paying huge vet bills by trainers is hyperbole. The truth is that we arent paid by most people to train their horse, we are paid to win races hence the main method of selecting trainers is via win %. You wont find that in any reports or studies. But when a large majority of owners continue to use a single qualification to choose trainers (win %) they are more or less endorsing whatever methods tht trainer employs. I find it hard to believe that people are stunned when they get huge vet bills from leading trainers.

Personally I prefer to train for people who have a clue as to what is going on and care about their horses. I could have twice as many horses as I have now pretty easily but too many people dont pay and what can be worse for your horse than having a trainer cutting corners because they dont have enough money to do things right?

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Let's just say that that particular owner was far more concerned with winning races than he is with pretty much anything else.

I have no problem with owners asking questions. Educated people are far better decision makers than people who are informed via Joe Drape.

The entire tone of that recent NYT piece that all these poor owners are being duped into paying huge vet bills by trainers is hyperbole. The truth is that we arent paid by most people to train their horse, we are paid to win races hence the main method of selecting trainers is via win %. You wont find that in any reports or studies. But when a large majority of owners continue to use a single qualification to choose trainers (win %) they are more or less endorsing whatever methods tht trainer employs. I find it hard to believe that people are stunned when they get huge vet bills from leading trainers.

Personally I prefer to train for people who have a clue as to what is going on and care about their horses. I could have twice as many horses as I have now pretty easily but too many people dont pay and what can be worse for your horse than having a trainer cutting corners because they dont have enough money to do things right?

Just to be clear I wasn't talking about the NYT article. I haven't even read the last one after the first two. They are full of crap for the most part.

For the record, if I did own horses, you are the kind of guy I would hire. The last guys I would hire would be people like Pletcher or Asmussen.

[NoLuvForPletch]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Just to be clear I wasn't talking about the NYT article. I haven't even read the last one after the first two. They are full of crap for the most part.

For the record, if I did own horses, you are the kind of guy I would hire. The last guys I would hire would be people like Pletcher or Asmussen.

Hey Chuck. You made a sale! You gave this guy too much of your time, though I enjoyed reading your take on things. So all was not lost.

[freddymo]

Originally Posted by NoLuvForPletch

Hey Chuck. You made a sale! You gave this guy too much of your time, though I enjoyed reading your take on things. So all was not lost.

Yeah Chuck you made an awesome case again. That guy is a complete lack of talent hair brain, probably doesnt bet or even follow racing much.

BTW if you double up on the adequan and the Clen in Pa. they will never catch you. Clen works really well and that adequan mixed in with some steriods bute and "canes" is a terrific cocktail.

I enjoyed the conversation and mutual acknowledgement of e-cred.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

But isn't that a big issue, trainers just milking owners for more dollars. Why would you try something that is expensive for 3-4 months without knowing the effect? Maybe the effects are overblown, but the point remains.

Some trainers are quite susceptible to gossip and old wives tales, and will try anything "believing" it works, and many vets are willing to sell them anything, too. You should see what some people do to horses in all sports to win. It's shocking.

It's like lasix, steroids, artificial surfaces - few base decisions solely upon emperical evidence. Emotion and 'belief" and "I know what I know" drives most of it.