Great Piece: Equine Athlete Psychology

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Danzig

does this guy also sell pap sheets?

It's probably pretty useful for smears.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

How can he assign such radically different assessments to Bodemeister and Trinniberg when they have the same running style? .

Because they are not being assessed by "running style".

[Riot]

Originally Posted by clambeau

like I said earlier...we'll have to wait and see if this guy's full of crap or not...dont dig yourself too big a hole there Charlie

He matches what several of the trainers have said about their horses.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Riot

Because they are not being assessed by "running style".

Thank you for helping my argument.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Thank you for helping my argument.

If somebody ever hands you a stable pony, and say, "Here. Just stand here and hold on" - don't take the assignment.

[clambeau]

unless you're reading something other than the link I posted, I don't think this guy is telling you who's gonna win...he's just putting into words what he's been observing in the Derby horses previous races. I'll read the darn thing again but I still wont see him giving anyone the Derby winner....

He's not charging anything for his opinion for cryin out loud.....cheez!!

[Riot]

Originally Posted by clambeau

unless you're reading something other than the link I posted, I don't think this guy is telling you who's gonna win...he's just putting into words what he's been observing in the Derby horses previous races. I'll read the darn thing again but I still wont see him giving anyone the Derby winner....

He's not charging anything for his opinion for cryin out loud.....cheez!!

Good grief. This isn't magic. All he's doing is accurately describing normal herd horse behaviour, that jockeys and trainers and exercise riders have known for years: some horses panic when surrounded. Some are aggressive and like to intimidate. Some won't run on out in front by themselves. Some don't like other horses coming up behind. Some stick to a buddy like glue and won't go ahead themselves. Some mentally dominate a challenger when they run alongside it. It's the very same physical things we do to horses, with our body motion, to gain dominance when we break them in a round pen when they are young.

It's no different than someone watching horses work in the am, and interpreting "how" the horse was feeling and acting during the work (aside from the time)

If someone has never ridden or trained horses, and doesn't know how horses think and act, I can see how it would be impossible to figure out what the guy was talking about.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Riot

Good grief. This isn't magic. All he's doing is accurately describing normal herd horse behaviour, that jockeys and trainers and exercise riders have known for years: some horses panic when surrounded. Some are aggressive and like to intimidate. Some won't run on out in front by themselves. Some don't like other horses coming up behind. Some stick to a buddy like glue and won't go ahead themselves. Some mentally dominate a challenger when they run alongside it. It's the very same physical things we do to horses, with our body motion, to gain dominance when we break them in a round pen when they are young.

It's no different than someone watching horses work in the am, and interpreting "how" the horse was feeling and acting during the work (aside from the time)

If someone has never ridden or trained horses, and doesn't know how horses think and act, I can see how it would be impossible to figure out what the guy was talking about.

In all seriousness, how can he differentiate between Bodemeister and Trinniberg's herd behavior based on their virtually identical running style thus far?

What I mean to ask is since they have the same style, how come they don't have different psych profiles?

It seems like nonsense to me.

[clambeau]

I still think it was an interesting study.....It should have come with a warning that it may offend some people who don't believe horses have a brain...

To those of you who think the whole thing is absurd...don't read it and try and forget what you read if you did read it (or had someone read it to you).

It'll be alright...you can just watch the Chicklets run around....you'll be fine.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

In all seriousness, how can he differentiate between Bodemeister and Trinniberg's herd behavior based on their virtually identical running style thus far?

What I mean to ask is since they have the same style, how come they don't have different psych profiles?

It seems like nonsense to me.

Can you copy here what he wrote about those two?

[Indian Charlie]

OMG.

Where in the hell did I even come close to implying horses don't have brains? Maybe you are inferring from my posts that you don't have one, but that's on you.

What I am saying is that this guy is fraudulent, whether or not he has something to sell, or will have something to sell in the future. His comments are gibberish, and for whatever reason, you find it easy to suspend all critical thought when reading him.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Riot

Can you copy here what he wrote about those two?

Yes, as can you. I'll do it, even though I know you are baiting me and think you'll make me look more foolish than I already am.

Trinniberg:

Trinniberg shows no interest at all in the group dynamic, and that could be a problem in a 20-horse field. He runs as fast as he can for as long as he can. He shows very little interpretation of stimulus behind him or even to the side.

I don’t see any indicators that he has enough of a group dynamic to manage a herd over a distance. This is not a drag race. This is a distance race.

Bodemeister:

Bodemeister’s patterns of motion are completely different than any horse in this field or any horse I’ve seen so far. His comfort zone is being alone. That’s not normal in horses.

His sweet spot is a forward distance focus, and he doesn’t need a target. His target is open space. That’s where he does his best. He has a fascinating emotional conformation profile. It’s like he’s looking forever in front of him, yet he has very good stimulus interpretation around him. He engages quickly.

Bodemeister will not be as prone to individual battles for space as some of these other horses. He doesn’t care. He just wants to be free of all of it, and his comfort zone is to move forward and away. Bodemeister knows what is behind him, but he doesn’t lock onto it.

At this point in his development, I think Bodemeister is better at being chased than he is at chasing or moving in a group. Being pushed from behind made him go faster in Arkansas. That puts him somewhat at the mercy of race dynamics. To win this Derby, I think he will have to get out and go. I would not want to see him tangled up in Derby traffic competing for space. That’s not his sweet spot psychologically.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Yes, as can you. I'll do it, even though I know you are baiting me and think you'll make me look more foolish than I already am.

I give you the benefit of the doubt that you don't know horses personally, how they think.

Others familiar with horses can chime in with their interpretation of what the guy is saying about these two.

Horses are herd animals. They (generally) have a pecking order, and take their cues on how to act, what order to drink, or who eats first, or who runs in the front, from physical intimidation of their space (rarely fighting) by higher-ups. There are a few leaders (who own their space and move other horses out of it), and most are followers (who move when told). A herd survives danger when it works together and sticks together and follows the leader's instructions. Safety in numbers.

I enter a stall with a strange horse to do something to it in the stall, I take it's halter and move it around in a circle in the stall - I've made the horse move out of my way, at my whim, away from my space (as a more dominant horse would do) and hopefully that puts me in charge as I control the stall space and where the horse moves (so I don't get squashed). Same thing in a round pen - you stand up straight and walk toward the horses hindquarters, that "pushes" the horse away from you. You control the space. You step in towards the front of the circling horse, he stops and respects your space. Won't enter it.

So that's what horses are doing running in a herd: some are scared, some pal up with a buddy and won't move away, some are dominant, some will willingly engage in a fight of speed and body slam intimidation to own the space, same freak and shrink if another horse looks at them with intimidation, some just get along, follow the rules and are good soldiers following the herd.

Trinniberg shows no interest at all in the group dynamic, and that could be a problem in a 20-horse field. He runs as fast as he can for as long as he can. He shows very little interpretation of stimulus behind him or even to the side.

I don’t see any indicators that he has enough of a group dynamic to manage a herd over a distance. This is not a drag race. This is a distance race.

The above strikes me as a non-thinking animal, who isn't aware of what's happening around him with the other horses. He's just in flight mode (but not necessarily scared) running until he drops. No desire to pass other horses, run with other horses, unawares of what is happening and other horses place in the herd. Just running until he can't go any more, regardless of what other horses are doing. Not pushing anyone out of his way, not being pushed because he's clueless. Head down, just doin' his thing, oblivious.

Bodemeister’s patterns of motion are completely different than any horse in this field or any horse I’ve seen so far. His comfort zone is being alone. That’s not normal in horses.

His sweet spot is a forward distance focus, and he doesn’t need a target. His target is open space. That’s where he does his best. He has a fascinating emotional conformation profile. It’s like he’s looking forever in front of him, yet he has very good stimulus interpretation around him. He engages quickly.

Bodemeister will not be as prone to individual battles for space as some of these other horses. He doesn’t care. He just wants to be free of all of it, and his comfort zone is to move forward and away. Bodemeister knows what is behind him, but he doesn’t lock onto it.

At this point in his development, I think Bodemeister is better at being chased than he is at chasing or moving in a group. Being pushed from behind made him go faster in Arkansas. That puts him somewhat at the mercy of race dynamics. To win this Derby, I think he will have to get out and go. I would not want to see him tangled up in Derby traffic competing for space. That’s not his sweet spot psychologically.

Horses are not loners - they are safer and more comfortable in the pack. This horse is a confident loner - weird in a horse - but is aware of what the others are doing around him. He's not interested in dominance battles, shoulder to shoulder - if a horse approaches from behind to engage him in battle, he'll just run away out front, confident and happy to be alone. He's not running "scared" away from the scary noise of the herd.

If he could get loose on the lead, at a decent pace (if there were no other speeds), he could happily wire, quite content to not be part of the herd, and running away if a closer came to him.

A "target" is that some horses like to see a target horse out front, something to catch and run down and pass.

[clambeau]

Excellent response ...Riot

One other minor point....An opinion can not in and of itself be "fraudulent"

An opinion is one person's belief of something.

A fraudulent person is one who is trying to gain something by some manner or form of deception.

Now if it was the case where the author stated..."Horse X will win because of Y reason...that'll be $20.00....and then proceeds to tell someone else "Horse Y will win for X reason...that'll be $20.00....that's fraud.

One man's opinion in and of itself simply can't be fraudulent....period

[Riot]

Gemologist: won the April 7 Wood in impressive fashion, taking the lead into the stretch and holding off a run by fellow Derby entrant Alpha to win by a neck.

Trainer: “I would think there is going to be enough speed in here that (Gemologist) is going to be just behind that first wave of speed horses," Pletcher said. "He’s the kind of horse that will adapt to that well.

That’s when it becomes a rider’s race. All the jockeys will have to be aware of how fast they are going and how close you want to be to it. Hopefully (Castellano) has that clock in his head.”

Kerry Thomas observations:

Gemologist is a very interesting horse. His natural pattern of motion is to move another horse, and not just by presence. He wants to move the other horses physically. Gemologist wants to get up in the other horse’s grill and make that horse know he is there. That’s a very high dynamic, but unfortunately it’s not the optimum efficiency.

He was waiting on Alpha in the Wood Memorial, because that’s his game. He really feeds off close contact. He seeks to target and make contact with another horse in his space. That will cause him to lose focus when he is on the lead. He clearly lost some of his forward motion while waiting to engage Alpha.

Gemologist has a good group dynamic and he can handle a lot of stimulus. If he finds himself in the herd early in the race, he should be OK. He’s certainly a high-level horse, and he’s very bullish into space.

Once he has the lead, I’d like to see more of a sense of urgency to move forward, instead of hunting backward. Gemologist has delayed release points. A horse that moves horses with presence has a faster target and release than a horse that wants to do so physically.

[ My interpretation of this is that Gemologist likes to physically intimidate with his presence, and stops to point it out, rather than mentally intimidate by confidence catching up with then just speed passing another horses ]

Gemologist is not going to be the only one wanting to battle for space in this Derby. He is a high-level horse, but I worry that he could get so engaged with individual battles, he could lose awareness of the larger herd, the race.

Here is John Lyons working an experienced horse in a round pen, just by using his body motion from the center of the pen. That's what horses do to each other in a herd (horse race) - they get in the space of others using body language, they take space using body language, they run down other horses, they pass them, or refuse to be dominant and refuse to pass, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXGLMEpXAr0&fmt=35

[Riot]

Here is this guys web site, and he talks to Bob Baffert - who basically says the same thing Kerry Thomas is saying, in his experience with training race horses. Short video, bottom left of page. Interesting.

http://www.thomasherdingtechnique.com/videos/index.php

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by clambeau

Excellent response ...Riot

One other minor point....An opinion can not in and of itself be "fraudulent"

An opinion is one person's belief of something.

A fraudulent person is one who is trying to gain something by some manner or form of deception.

Now if it was the case where the author stated..."Horse X will win because of Y reason...that'll be $20.00....and then proceeds to tell someone else "Horse Y will win for X reason...that'll be $20.00....that's fraud.

One man's opinion in and of itself simply can't be fraudulent....period

i have no doubt this guy has monetary gain on his mind with submitting this piece.

it's nothing new to suggest there are herd dynamics at play in races; the thing i'm scoffing at is this guy trying to suggest he has something new and interesting for people to read and learn from. i feel i'd do just as well using his ideas as i would to drive half an hour south of here and go by the psychic across the street from wal-mart. i'm sure her ideas would be just as useful.
at any rate, don't take cynicism of this guy personally, it's not intended as such towards you.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

It is and it isn't.

Knowing all the traits, intangibles, and habits of a race horse is an edge and can be accomplished with a little work when it's worth all the effort ... but this is dressing it up (dare I say gaying it up) way too much.

What do you make of Creative Cause?

I like him on style, but I didn't like how he seemed to get "hung-up" in his last race.

[clambeau]

Fair enough...I'm cynical too, but to call the guy a fraud, that's just not right..let's wait and see how the race plays out for cryin out loud and if his writings or ideas are spot on, let him make his $$$...more power to him....you or I don't have to buy or believe his stuff.

I think it's a breath of fresh air, whether it's a new or old idea dont matter to me....I hadnt looked at races this way before so it's new to me...and interesting to me and evidently to others.


For those non believers....go to a different church or a different gypsie

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Riot

I give you the benefit of the doubt that you don't know horses personally, how they think.

Others familiar with horses can chime in with their interpretation of what the guy is saying about these two.

Horses are herd animals. They (generally) have a pecking order, and take their cues on how to act, what order to drink, or who eats first, or who runs in the front, from physical intimidation of their space (rarely fighting) by higher-ups. There are a few leaders (who own their space and move other horses out of it), and most are followers (who move when told). A herd survives danger when it works together and sticks together and follows the leader's instructions. Safety in numbers.

I enter a stall with a strange horse to do something to it in the stall, I take it's halter and move it around in a circle in the stall - I've made the horse move out of my way, at my whim, away from my space (as a more dominant horse would do) and hopefully that puts me in charge as I control the stall space and where the horse moves (so I don't get squashed). Same thing in a round pen - you stand up straight and walk toward the horses hindquarters, that "pushes" the horse away from you. You control the space. You step in towards the front of the circling horse, he stops and respects your space. Won't enter it.

So that's what horses are doing running in a herd: some are scared, some pal up with a buddy and won't move away, some are dominant, some will willingly engage in a fight of speed and body slam intimidation to own the space, same freak and shrink if another horse looks at them with intimidation, some just get along, follow the rules and are good soldiers following the herd.

I agree with everything you say above. I have nowhere near your hands on experience with horses, but that jives with books I've read on horse mentality/psychology, and is pretty normal for most highly social animals.

Originally Posted by Riot

The above (Trinniberg) strikes me as a non-thinking animal, who isn't aware of what's happening around him with the other horses. He's just in flight mode (but not necessarily scared) running until he drops. No desire to pass other horses, run with other horses, unawares of what is happening and other horses place in the herd. Just running until he can't go any more, regardless of what other horses are doing. Not pushing anyone out of his way, not being pushed because he's clueless. Head down, just doin' his thing, oblivious.

So, speed crazy horses are stupid? Or, maybe not stupid, but just a horse that loses it's mind when it runs?

It's funny how many horses with sprint breeding, sprint physiques, sprint trainers and very high early speed are stupid, unthinking or mindless! Must be a genetic connection between fast twitch muscle and mindlessness.

Originally Posted by Riot

Horses are not loners - they are safer and more comfortable in the pack. This horse (Bodemeister)is a confident loner - weird in a horse - but is aware of what the others are doing around him. He's not interested in dominance battles, shoulder to shoulder - if a horse approaches from behind to engage him in battle, he'll just run away out front, confident and happy to be alone. He's not running "scared" away from the scary noise of the herd.

If he could get loose on the lead, at a decent pace (if there were no other speeds), he could happily wire, quite content to not be part of the herd, and running away if a closer came to him.

A "target" is that some horses like to see a target horse out front, something to catch and run down and pass.

Maybe Bodemeister isn't so much a confident loner as he is a much more physically gifted animal. As in faster.

I remember reading a story about Easy Goer, and how he got his name. Apparently, from an early age (foal, yearling) whenever he was with other horses his age, his gallops would find him far in front of his playmates/workmates, even though he was moving just so easily. Hence, Easy Goer. I'm guessing he wasn't a confident loner, but just a much more gifted runner.

I would much rather have a horse with a nice combination of speed and stamina but that might lack a little in the psych department, vs a horse that has a great dominant psychology, but is as slow as molasses.