The model is the World Series of Poker TV coverage

[Linny]

One difference between racing and poker is that poker takes 3 or 4 days of thousands of players and mashes it into 2 hours of only the most suspenseful moments, racing tries to stretch it's 30 seconds of excitement out to one hour.
The other is that in viewing poker on the TV, the viewer is omnicient. He knows who's holding what cards. Having that knowledge makes him feel superior to the game. Effectively, the poker viewer is redboarding every hand he sees.

[tector]

Originally Posted by Linny

One difference between racing and poker is that poker takes 3 or 4 days of thousands of players and mashes it into 2 hours of only the most suspenseful moments, racing tries to stretch it's 30 seconds of excitement out to one hour.

It is even longer than that. There are four "Day 1s" and two "Day 2s". So just to get the field cut to 2000 or so requires six days of real play.

[MaTH716]

Has there ever been any attempt of tying horse racing in with the lottery and their terminals? I'll use NY as an example. Would it be beneficial (or even possible) for lottery retailers to sell tickets on races in NY? Tons of people sit in places like cafe's and bars to play keno (NY lottery offers a keno game every approx. 3 minutes) for hours at a time. It could be another wagering option for people instead of the usual lottery games. People play numbers twice a day in NY (actually 4 times if you count the pick 4 {another lottery game} which is offered in the afternoon and at night), come up with a strategy/marketing idea/game where people might want to play their numbers in some sort of sequance at a local NY track. Many people just want some action and if you give them the opportunity, I'm sure you will pick up some new customers.

Another thing that hurts the game (for at least the casual/newer people) is the lack of places that they could put a bet in. More so now in the NY area then ever with the closure of OTB. More locations to get a bet in would be a good thing. What good would it be to have some exposure on TV and for people not being able to put a bet in without having to travel all the way to Queens to get a bet in?

[tector]

This is a more realistic idea, although tying racing to the money vacuum that is the lottery has its downside. But unless you can show that this would lead to a lot more lottery play, why would a state do it? The take out on the lottery is HUGE. Why would a state want to encourage its lottery players to spend some of their money on horses, where the state gets a far lesser return?

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by tector

This is a more realistic idea, although tying racing to the money vacuum that is the lottery has its downside. But unless you can show that this would lead to a lot more lottery play, why would a state do it? The take out on the lottery is HUGE. Why would a state want to encourage its lottery players to spend some of their money on horses, where the state gets a far lesser return?

That's the grey area for me. I know NYRA is a franchise, but they are obviously involved with New York State. I just have no idea how hand in hand they are and would want to be. Obviously it would be good for NYRA, the question is could they make a deal that would be good enough for the State that would entice them to go into this buisness together.

You would think that even if a few lottery retailers had the opportunity just to sell the tickets ,that would be good enough for NYRA and it wouldn't take much away from NYS.

[richard]

Originally Posted by joeydb

Depends on the casino and the game (1-2 no limit, 2-4 limit...)

It is not typically done as a raw percentage (in the casino) but as a tier system (this much of the flop betting, this much of the turn betting, river, etc) and there is usually a cap. It is nowhere near as high as 20% if I had to guess the ballpark.

Online might due a percentage (rounded to whole numbers) because the counting is that much easier. I haven't done it, so that's also a guess, but it would be feasible without slowing the game down.

Why are other forms of gambling taxed (takeout) at a lower rate than horse race wagering? This just does not sound legal.

[Split Rock]

Originally Posted by tector

I've sat in person at the WSOP and watched the final table unfold in real time. (I think the past two years the full table started the afternoon of BC Saturday). The amount of editing that goes into producing that show is pretty incredible, around 90% (say 16 real time hours cut down to 2 or 2.5 hours--with commercials). You could do something like that for the NHC--that isn't a problem. Here are the problems:

Handicapping a horse race is fundamentally different than making a poker decision. The latter lends itself to TV coverage and analysis, since the math (with hole cards) is plain enough. The former, not so much. And this is the "hook" for most people, not just seeing money change hands. Everybody has played poker, if even only badly. Most people have not truly doped out a horse race. A DRF looks more foreign to them than a WSJ.

You have about two months of lead-in coverage to the WSOP final table (easy enough to do with 8000 players playing over a week in real time). Nothing like that for racing.

You have year-round coverage of other poker tournaments which basically familiarize people with the process they are going to see at the WSOP--High Stakes Poker (new season starts later this month), WPT (new season starts Sunday), Poker After Dark (out of their repeats this week), Pokerstars series (in repeats now--season 1 just ended), and so on.

I just don't see the two as comparable, fundamentally.

Spot on!!!

[Split Rock]

Re: Fantasy Racing. Will never, ever work. The lure of Fantasy Football is the predictability to when the games are played. No way to have such with Fantasy Racing. It will never, never, never, never work as a "hook".

Re: WSOP vs. NHC. Apples and oranges. What the previous poster said about understanding the how's and why's are the big difference. To see player A needs #3 to win to take the lead in the NHC is dull. We likely have no connection to the players or the horses, just the interest in seeing someone win a lot of money. Again...dull (unless it was me winning the money).

One poster said something about people watching a horse race for a grocery store gimmick or something. It got me thinking, what a fantastic way for racing to get the non players to at least tune in and watch. Offer grocery store discounts to those shoppers that keep their receipt with a number printed on it for the Kentucky Derby. If that number horse wins, they win X from the grocery store. While not really getting my blood pumping, neither does cutting out a coupon for 10c off of white rice. People do it.

If racing (whoever or whatever racing is) partnered with a big grocery chain and made the prize worthwhile it might spark enough interest to keep some engaged long enough to check it out. Couldn't hurt!!

The tired ways they reach out to get public interest today is silly.

Final comment.....I believe the real "hook" of racing is the racing form. Analysis. Educating guessing, etc. Develop a marketing plan that embraces that rather than hide it (i.e. game is a serious challenge for agile thinkers vs. it's super easy, just like pulling a lever).

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by Split Rock

Final comment.....I believe the real "hook" of racing is the racing form. Analysis. Educating guessing, etc. Develop a marketing plan that embraces that rather than hide it (i.e. game is a serious challenge for agile thinkers vs. it's super easy, just like pulling a lever).

Another sentiment I totally agree with. Without the Form, I won't play, period.

[Bigsmc]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Not sure if Joey heard Steve Crist on ATR Wednesday in regards to this topic... All the relevant points brought up here were featured in Crist's thoughts, including the 'what can be added to the coverage as a hook' to make the broadcast compelling. And Doug and Coach have it. The viewer needs a stake in the outcome. And as suggested, there's ways to do it.

Callers to ATR regularly wax nostalgic about the regional grocery chain horse racing TV game that had viewers watching previously run races on tape that generated prizes based on the game tickets they accrued at the market. People are STILL talking about it 40 years later! WTF? Doesn't that say everything we need to know?

There are variations on this theme -- fantasy racing as Doug & Coach allude to -- that are very viable and marketable to the sponsors needed to make this work. I was broaching this subject with Satish as well Wednesday. It needs exploration and trial. The sport has nothing to lose...

I don't see how fantasy racing could work given the amount of time and effort it would take to stay on top of horse's form, health, training etc....

I don't have enough time to handicap they way I would like to now.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

The millions of people who play fantasy sports and take it seriously spend countless hours a week pouring over stats - it takes a lot of dedication and there is very little reward. I believe one survey even claimed it was the #2 reason given why women break up with their boyfriend.

The kind of guy who is going to juggle his fantasy outfielders around every day because....

'guy A might be my 5th best hitting outfielder - but he is playing in high scoring Coors Field tonight - and going against a mediocre left handed pitcher. He's 11-for-24 lifetime with 4 HR's against this pitcher - and he generally feasts off of left handed pitching - guy B is my 2nd best hitting outfielder - he's up against Johan Santana today and he's 4-for-31 lifetime against him. I'll sit him and play the scrub'

These are the kind of guys that horse racing would have a big chance with.

Like I said - no idea how to reach them. That's racings problem to figure out.

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

The millions of people who play fantasy sports and take it seriously spend countless hours a week pouring over stats - it takes a lot of dedication and there is very little reward. I believe one survey even claimed it was the #2 reason given why women break up with their boyfriend.

The kind of guy who is going to juggle his fantasy outfielders around every day because....

'guy A might be my 5th best hitting outfielder - but he is playing in high scoring Coors Field tonight - and going against a mediocre left handed pitcher. He's 11-for-24 lifetime with 4 HR's against this pitcher - and he generally feasts off of left handed pitching - guy B is my 2nd best hitting outfielder - he's up against Johan Santana today and he's 4-for-31 lifetime against him. I'll sit him and play the scrub'

These are the kind of guys that horse racing would have a big chance with.

Like I said - no idea how to reach them. That's racings problem to figure out.

I disagree Doug. Don't forget these are guys who have the chance to make moves everyday. Then there is that almost instant gratification (especially in baseball) with games being played every night.

I just think that there are too many varibles in racing for it to be a success.

Originally Posted by MaTH716

I disagree Doug. Don't forget these are guys who have the chance to make moves everyday. Then there is that almost instant gratification (especially in baseball) with games being played every night.

I just think that there are too many varibles in racing for it to be a success.

Which make the possibilities endless and gives a much higher percentage of implementing a system that will be a success.

It won't happen. You really need media exposure. TVG and HRTV aren't cutting it.

[Linny]

Decades ago here in the Albany NY area one of the supermarkets had a game tied to racing. You got a ticket with every receipt with a race # and a horse #. Every Saturday (I think) they would show a series of races (I think from Tropical Park) and you tuned into see if you won. The races in question were old races, not current and effectively the horses were the moral equivalent of ping pong balls in the lottery.

I have long thought that encouraging a "lottery" for racing is a good idea. Have you ever taken a non racing friend to a track? They don't really get the PP's or understand how you might project a future effort from them, but they bet on a name or a color or a jockey and have a great time.

Why not promote something like the .10 super as a lottery. If people could buy a superfecta ticket at a convenience store on the way home and have a reason to watch a horse race as soon as they get home what harm is done? Sure, not everyone is going to evolve into a fan or regular bettor, but some might. Back to the prior example, if you bring different friends to the track eventually one or two might actually want to learn to read the pp's? Maybe a couple take an interest. If the same % of "lottery" style players want to get more involved, racing could grow.
The biggest issue with this example is that states wouldn't allow selling of racing tickets like lotto tickets in direct competition with their beloved lotteries.

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

Which make the possibilities endless and gives a much higher percentage of implementing a system that will be a success.

It won't happen. You really need media exposure. TVG and HRTV aren't cutting it.

I guess the possibilities could be endless. But I just feel like there is a big obstacle besides the lack of coverage that racing would have to get over for this to work. Mostly the education of the possible new fan base would be number one on the list. But then I think, if there was a way to educate this new group, wouldn't you rather that they were using there new knowledge by putting money into betting pools then wasting their time playing some sort of fantasy game? Or am I putting the cart before the horse and people are thinking that the fantasy game will draw people into playing for real?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

I disagree Doug. Don't forget these are guys who have the chance to make moves everyday. Then there is that almost instant gratification (especially in baseball) with games being played every night.

I just think that there are too many varibles in racing for it to be a success.

I'm not even suggesting fantasy horse racing - I'm just saying there is huge cross-over potential with those kind of people.





Those are people racing might have a chance with - and there are millions of them. Getting the horsey loving girls carrying Zenyatta signs to study a racing form and think up betting strategies - no chance.

A simple suggestion might be to sponser a couple fantasy tournaments - and give the top four finishers a betting voucher type special coupon to hand the teller.

Give the contest winner something like two free $50 win bets and ten free $5 exactas for each weekend - over a stretch of five weekends.. along with a kit and handicapping book.

Originally Posted by MaTH716

I guess the possibilities could be endless. But I just feel like there is a big obstacle besides the lack of coverage that racing would have to get over for this to work. Mostly the education of the possible new fan base would be number one on the list. But then I think, if there was a way to educate this new group, wouldn't you rather that they were using there new knowledge by putting money into betting pools then wasting their time playing some sort of fantasy game? Or am I putting the cart before the horse and people are thinking that the fantasy game will draw people into playing for real?

Educating the new players is a big problem. Drf, sheets, and video replays can price most people out of the market.

You would have so many hands in the pot and that would raise the takeout to a level that wouldn't keep it a competitive product.

Many sacrifices would have to be made in order for it to work. Good luck with any being made.

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I'm not even suggesting fantasy horse racing - I'm just saying there is huge cross-over potential with those kind of people.





Those are people racing might have a chance with - and there are millions of them. Getting the horsey loving girls carrying Zenyatta signs to study a racing form and think up betting strategies - no chance.

A simple suggestion might be to sponser a couple fantasy tournaments - and give the top four finishers a betting voucher type special coupon to hand the teller.

Give the contest winner something like two free $50 win bets and ten free $5 exactas for each weekend - over a stretch of five weekends.. along with a kit and handicapping book.

Are you talking about different sports or just horses?

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

Are you talking about different sports or just horses?

Football and Baseball.

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Football and Baseball.

So basically you are turning the track into a sports bar for these people? What good is it, if they are doing nothing than just focusing their time on football & baseball the entire time.

Education is the key. On these days at the track when they focus on families, college kids and or any type of new patron that makes it to the track, the sport must focus it's attention on educating these people and getting them to use this new found knowledge on a return trip to the track. Maybe instead of giving away an umbrella, run some sort of education DVD giveaway sponsered by DRf or Equibase etc. and have it be part of a 4 part education set about the sport and more importantly betting it. Maybe in special editions of the weekend programs or forms they could include some sort of beginer DVD. You would think that anything would be a step in the right direction. Hell with all the useless programming TVG has, how about some sort of weekly handicapping show that they could just replay at certain times.

The ideas are endless, but unfortunately too many people inside the game seem to be alright with the staus quo and that's very unfortunate.