Take Control breaks down

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

You can draw a line through Take Control, who apparently broke down this morning. Quite the job his trainer did.

Is this fair? I dont have pps in front of me, but I believe 5 or 6 starts and the horse is 6. Clear physical issues.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Is this fair? I dont have pps in front of me, but I believe 5 or 6 starts and the horse is 6. Clear physical issues.

It's not unfair

[randallscott35]

That heart attack story last year coincided with Baffert going ice cold in the Breeders Cup including the flop of Game on Dude...Of course this wasn't a heart attack so I'm sure he'll be fine on the big days.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

It's not unfair

Im not even trying to defend Baffert, its just the way that person posted it, facts are facts. The horse had serious physical issues all along, no?

[my miss storm cat]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

Here's a 6YO horse with four lifetime starts. He had one race in the last fifteen months, and that was a last place finish, beaten 17 lengths, in which he showed nothing. In the Breeders' Cup Marathon, his "insightful" connections sure picked out a great spot for his next start.

Well said.

I have to admit I even agree with Freddy in this thread and that never happens.

Poor horse.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Im not even trying to defend Baffert, its just the way that person posted it, facts are facts. The horse had serious physical issues all along, no?

Obviously but Baffert is ultimately responsible and while he might not have pulled the trigger he is left holding the smoking gun. Truthfully we don't even know what issues that he had in prior years and if they were related to the fatal injury. However as trainers we must assume the moral/ethical responsibility when we are putting horses out on the track in the morning and afternoon. It is not a coincidence that certain trainers have a far greater % of breakdowns than most. One of the big name trainers in NY has had far too many breakdowns than should be kosher but because they are rarely big names or have pretty horse people followings they basically get shrugged off. Like most everything else in life, without consequences you wont see a change in behavior or in this case fatal injuries.

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by Kasept

Appreciate Chuck separating the 2 portions of the situation. I was conveying from the original post about Take Control's 'soundness', that those nearest to him of late felt he was sound and going well. Obviously his back story indicate there have been plenty of things that kept him out of training.

Steve, a horse doesn't have to be hobbling on the track to be a ticking time bomb. He was in my stable mail, I had a pretty good idea of much hard training he got and was concerned but I just figured the fact that Bob was still making a go of it was a good sign. Now I wonder what it was a sign of exactly. TC was sound until he wasn't and when he wasn't he really really wasn't. Three times and we all know how the 3rd one went. Compared to TC, Monzante was an iron horse.

Take Control clearly had issues that could appear all of a sudden (well, as far as we were concerned) and take him out for lengthy periods of time. You'd think that'd make them a little trigger happy with the x-rays after a poor performance. I'd be looking at him like he was made of glass after his last two incidents. No way does his Awesome Again not call for a thorough going over. Did he get it? Orb did after his last face plant. Great that clockers thought TC looked fine. Clearly wasn't fine enough to finish anything other than dead last in his last race. He's a better horse than that. Something wasn't right, the kind of not right that would get some connections to wait for next year, not go to the Breeders' Cup. Imagine if they decided to give him the winter off so as to not risk another year lost or worse. Didn't Baffert talk about how well a horse has to be doing to warrant coming to the BC? TC was gonna bring his A game? What exactly does that look like? Forgive me I've only seen it once in 2009 and once in 2012. It sounds harsh because I was invested in a horse I felt had writing on the wall, but I can't be sorry for that harshness. It's just something that seems obvious to me, and clearly other posters here. I don't get how this happened despite that obviousness. Whatever his training, his racing form didn't make me think he was sitting on a big one.

[Indian Charlie]

Take Control was a very talented horse. It's a shame he couldn't hold it together long enough to survive training.

That being said, I heard he's now being pointed to the new Breeders Cup Rainbow Bridge sprint.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Obviously but Baffert is ultimately responsible and while he might not have pulled the trigger he is left holding the smoking gun. Truthfully we don't even know what issues that he had in prior years and if they were related to the fatal injury. However as trainers we must assume the moral/ethical responsibility when we are putting horses out on the track in the morning and afternoon. It is not a coincidence that certain trainers have a far greater % of breakdowns than most. One of the big name trainers in NY has had far too many breakdowns than should be kosher but because they are rarely big names or have pretty horse people followings they basically get shrugged off. Like most everything else in life, without consequences you wont see a change in behavior or in this case fatal injuries.

Fair Chuck, and seriously I appreciate you taking the time and discussing this kind of stuff. It’s good to have an actual trainer, who makes himself overly accessible to anyone who wants to learn, or just talk horses. I think its admirable. I read your stuff on PA all the time in the ask a trainer thread, good stuff. Agree or disagree with you, you have an opinion and share it, its cool.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

Steve, a horse doesn't have to be hobbling on the track to be a ticking time bomb. He was in my stable mail, I had a pretty good idea of much hard training he got and was concerned but I just figured the fact that Bob was still making a go of it was a good sign. Now I wonder what it was a sign of exactly. TC was sound until he wasn't and when he wasn't he really really wasn't. Three times and we all know how the 3rd one went. Compared to TC, Monzante was an iron horse.

Take Control clearly had issues that could appear all of a sudden (well, as far as we were concerned) and take him out for lengthy periods of time. You'd think that'd make them a little trigger happy with the x-rays after a poor performance. I'd be looking at him like he was made of glass after his last two incidents. No way does his Awesome Again not call for a thorough going over. Did he get it? Orb did after his last face plant. Great that clockers thought TC looked fine. Clearly wasn't fine enough to finish anything other than dead last in his last race. He's a better horse than that. Something wasn't right, the kind of not right that would get some connections to wait for next year, not go to the Breeders' Cup. Imagine if they decided to give him the winter off so as to not risk another year lost or worse. Didn't Baffert talk about how well a horse has to be doing to warrant coming to the BC? TC was gonna bring his A game? What exactly does that look like? Forgive me I've only seen it once in 2009 and once in 2012. It sounds harsh because I was invested in a horse I felt had writing on the wall, but I can't be sorry for that harshness. It's just something that seems obvious to me, and clearly other posters here. I don't get how this happened despite that obviousness. Whatever his training, his racing form didn't make me think he was sitting on a big one.

I understand every aspect of what you're thinking/feeling. It's obvious that Take Control needed extensive time off for periods but it's also implausible that Baffert and Shah, already facing intense critique for the group of horses that died, would press on with him if he was presenting as in a danger zone. You can then make the argument that his entire body of non-work put him in a danger zone and that's not wrong. But they're all in a danger zone to varying degrees. An unknown 12yo named Who's Livin Bettor that should be retired made his 99th start at Finger Lakes Thursday. Who's worried about his well being? What's more 'wrong'.. continuing to campaign him or Take Control? This is always a difficult arena. I'm saddened by Take Control going down. I thought he was going well and was pulling for him to fulfill as much of his promise as he could.

[OldDog]

Originally Posted by Kasept

I understand every aspect of what you're thinking/feeling. It's obvious that Take Control needed extensive time off for periods but it's also implausible that Baffert and Shah, already facing intense critique for the group of horses that died, would press on with him if he was presenting as in a danger zone. You can then make the argument that his entire body of non-work put him in a danger zone and that's not wrong. But they're all in a danger zone to varying degrees. An unknown 12yo named Who's Livin Bettor that should be retired made his 99th start at Finger Lakes Thursday. Who's worried about his well being? What's more 'wrong'.. continuing to campaign him or Take Control? This is always a difficult arena. I'm saddened by Take Control going down. I thought he was going well and was pulling for him to fulfill as much of his promise as he could.

Bingo.

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by Kasept

An unknown 12yo named Who's Livin Bettor that should be retired made his 99th start at Finger Lakes Thursday. Who's worried about his well being? What's more 'wrong'.. continuing to campaign him or Take Control?

It looks like Who's Livin' Bettor has been owned by the same person since he broke his maiden in 2004--Edward Perdue. He's been in $4,000ish claimers for what seems like the whole time, running every year for now the 10th year. He last ran in a $4,500 claimer from what I can tell. Hope they're gonna go for 100 and call it a day just because it's nice timing and really why do another year. The thing is, looking at Equibase it seems like they've put him in several races regularly during his season, given him the whole winter off, then come back late spring. It's probably why he's made it this far. No signs of unsoundness just considering the regularity of his appearances. I haven't gone through all 99 starts but I noticed a pattern.Yes the age is gonna be more of an issue but this looks like more of an iron horse of a sort. At least for this day and age. 8 starts this year starting in May. He's the anti-Take Control. If you'd shown me both Take Control and Who's Livin' Bettor and told me to pick one of the two to risk making one more start, I'm taking Who's Livin' Bettor. He's in for so cheap, if someone wants to do a good deed, either claim him or approach the owner. I'd imagine Perdue's gonna say no and people at Finger Lakes would give you the stink eye for taking his horse away.

You've officially made me a fan of this horse, Steve. I don't know that owner, but I'd guess the horse is beloved and well looked after. I wouldn't say it's wrong at all to campaign this horse. I don't know that age 13 is a great idea, but I could see wrapping up 2013 in fine style and sending him to a farm.