Frankel

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Timeform numbers are pretty accurate considering timing of races there is kind of a joke but I don't know that sometimes hype doesn't affect those numbers a bit

It does.

If you study Harbinger's best race (140) VS Frankel's (147) you'll see true absurdity.

Harbinger was undefeated at age 4 and had four Group wins that season -- in his 140 in the King George he won by 11 lengths.

* Second place finisher Cape Blanco was a 5-time Group 1 winner and came here and dominated our turf divison.

* Third place finisher Youmzain (beaten 14+ lengths) made over $5.3 million in earnings and was twice 2nd in the Arc.

* 4th place finisher Daraykana (beaten 15 lengths) was a Group 1 winner and had just been beaten a neck in Group 1 last out.

* 5th place finisher Workforce (Beaten 17 lengths) won the Arc next time out and had won the English Derby earlier in the year.

He also ran 5.41 full seconds faster (or about 33 full lengths) than the winner of the very next race on the same day at the same distance.

This all happened under perfect weather conditions and ground just like Frankel's win.

Both races were tremendously fast -- clearly the two fastest turf races I've ever seen that were clean (had a companion race to compare against on the same card and distance) 147 VS 140 would not jive on an American style figure. It's nonsense fueled by reputation of the winner.

[PatCummings]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

It does.

If you study Harbinger's best race (140) VS Frankel's (147) you'll see true absurdity.

Harbinger was undefeated at age 4 and had four Group wins that season -- in his 140 in the King George he won by 11 lengths.

* Second place finisher Cape Blanco was a 5-time Group 1 winner and came here and dominated our turf divison.

* Third place finisher Youmzain (beaten 14+ lengths) made over $5.3 million in earnings and was twice 2nd in the Arc.

* 4th place finisher Daraykana (beaten 15 lengths) was a Group 1 winner and had just been beaten a neck in Group 1 last out.

* 5th place finisher Workforce (Beaten 17 lengths) won the Arc next time out and had won the English Derby earlier in the year.

He also ran 5.41 full seconds faster (or about 33 full lengths) than the winner of the very next race on the same day at the same distance.

This all happened under perfect weather conditions and ground just like Frankel's win.

Both races were tremendously fast -- clearly the two fastest turf races I've ever seen that were clean (had a companion race to compare against on the same card and distance) 147 VS 140 would not jive on an American style figure. It's nonsense fueled by reputation of the winner.

Really not sure the reason for comparing them. Clearly, hype is part of it. Harbinger was far from unbeaten, had a nice small streak going, but nothing crazy. Frankel, on the other hand, has made a relative mockery of his competition on the regular. It's arguable that a relatively hype-less 140 for Harbinger stacks up well to the completely hyped 147.

Let's go farther - I hate these winning streaks. Loathe them. Frankel, Zenyatta, Black Caviar, etc...from a racing side of things, they drive connections into making decisions they wouldn't make had their horses lost by a nose in any of their previous races. Instead, there are some good aspects with press, etc., but the burden of maintaining the streak is what makes them so unbecoming.

They make a big deal about shipping Black Caviar 33 hours...oh the humanity. And what will they likely do right after, win or lose? Take her back home, despite the fact that she's beating the same sops, and it's the middle of winter. Meanwhile, they run the July Cup and Nunthorpe Stakes, two massive international G1 sprint races in the same country where she spent 33 GRUELING hours getting to...

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by PatCummings

Harbinger was far from unbeaten, had a nice small streak going, but nothing crazy.

I said he was undefeated at age 4.

[PatCummings]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

I said he was undefeated at age 4.

But not for his entire career. The thrill just isn't the same, the hype is far from the same. I'll Have Another is undefeated at 3...but the maniacal buzz wasn't there because he had losses on his CV.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by PatCummings

Really not sure the reason for comparing them.

There is a difference between a performer and a performance.

Any competent figure maker understands that. In this case, you're comparing performances and not performers.

[PatCummings]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

There is a difference between a performer and a performance.

Any competent figure maker understands that. In this case, you're comparing performances and not performers.

I agree, completely. But the figure makers are human, read the hype, hear the hype. It's tough.

[brockguy]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

It does.

If you study Harbinger's best race (140) VS Frankel's (147) you'll see true absurdity.

Harbinger was undefeated at age 4 and had four Group wins that season -- in his 140 in the King George he won by 11 lengths.

* Second place finisher Cape Blanco was a 5-time Group 1 winner and came here and dominated our turf divison.

* Third place finisher Youmzain (beaten 14+ lengths) made over $5.3 million in earnings and was twice 2nd in the Arc.

* 4th place finisher Daraykana (beaten 15 lengths) was a Group 1 winner and had just been beaten a neck in Group 1 last out.

* 5th place finisher Workforce (Beaten 17 lengths) won the Arc next time out and had won the English Derby earlier in the year.

He also ran 5.41 full seconds faster (or about 33 full lengths) than the winner of the very next race on the same day at the same distance.

This all happened under perfect weather conditions and ground just like Frankel's win.

Both races were tremendously fast -- clearly the two fastest turf races I've ever seen that were clean (had a companion race to compare against on the same card and distance) 147 VS 140 would not jive on an American style figure. It's nonsense fueled by reputation of the winner.

Doug,

You could pick so many holes in this logic, if I have time I'll propoerly respond - it was a fantastic performance by Harbinger but not absolutely unbelievable and - on the other hand Frankels was extraordinary and it was an absolutely privilege for me to be there at Ascot on Tuesday for it.

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by brockguy

Doug,

You could pick so many holes in this logic,

No, you can't.

[brockguy]

Originally Posted by Calzone Lord

No, you can't.

Ha when I have the time I will - you seem to be suggesting that the horses who ran actually ran up to their or near their best form, I can easily argue that none of the other 4 horses did (which isn't that inconceivable!)

[Calzone Lord]

Originally Posted by brockguy

Ha when I have the time I will - you seem to be suggesting that the horses who ran actually ran up to their or near their best form, I can easily argue that none of the other 4 horses did (which isn't that inconceivable!)

We debated this a few days after the race. I'm sure a lot of people in Europe took your position on it at the time ... which is why you got 6-to-1 odds on Cape Blanco in his obliteration of the Irish Champions next out. It's why you got 6-to-1 on Workforce in the Arc next out.

The odds that all four of these extremely honest Group 1 winning horses simultaneously all picked the same day to run non-efforts is unlikely.

When coupled with the fact that the race went 33 lengths faster than the other race on the card -- that comparison tells the story.

Cape Blanco, Youmzain, Daryakana, and Workforce are all outstanding horses and they all ran very close to par on a day when the weather conditions were lovely

Harbinger was a dramatically improving 4-year-old who absolutely exploded. It was a truly great performance. Like I said though, there's a difference between performers and performances. Harbinger broke down in a workout after that and never raced again. He was not a great performer at age 3 like Frankel was either. I have no problem with anyone saying Frankel was the better horse. Overall, obviously he is. That's undisputed.