Joel Rosario shifting his tack to NY

[MaTH716]

Originally Posted by v j stauffer

Not a move I would advise. He's 6th in the nation in earnings. That with having a very quiet last 30 days because of chasing the Triple Crown, sadly having to attend to his brother and suspensions.

Not sure what the desired goal would be. Top 5 in the nation in total earnings? Already there. Live Triple Crown mounts? Already there. Breeders' Cup Prospects? Already there. Has won two.

Here's the thing. He's dominant in California. Something that is VERY VERY hard to accomplish. For some reason riders from back east with equal talent have tried it out here and failed. Never understood why but many have crawled home with their tail between their legs.

Also riding here is about 50,000 times easier logistically than bouncing around back east. Saratoga? Of course. What about the winter? Aqueduct ( inner ) don't think so for a kid from the Dominican. Keeneland? Sure. Will have build relationships. Gulfstream? Sure. Same story there.

California on the other hand is Valhalla for a guy that has his business. Fantastic weather year round. Live in the same house all but 7 weeks when somehow he has to endure a condo on a San Diego beach.

His morning work here is a total piece of cake. Breeze your stakes horses. Help out at Sadler's and a couple of marquee barns and kick around the backside politicing and visiting. Take some mornings off ( not an option at Belmont ) and ride nothing but 6/5 shots.

He and Bejarano are friends. More importantly their agents work together to freeze out other riders and keep the business in the top two family. VERY IMPORTANT! Also not possible back east.

I understand when you're young and super talented new adventures seem exciting. I say try river rafting, bungee jumping or of course musicals.

There's a certain little girl with Ruby slippers that said it best. And she was from Kansas for crying out loud. Not the paradise that So. Cal is.

Don't do it Joel.

I really don't understand your plea/post. Wouldn't a good goal be, trying to be the best of your profession? OK, he has accomplished a lot in California and no one is taking anything away from him. Although dominant might be a bit over the top, especially when the feeling seems to be (or at least the one I get) is that Raffie is the go to money guy out there. But I agree he has done very well for himself out there. But possibly it's to the point where he feels like he's accomplished all he's going to accomplish out there and he's starting to spin his wheels. If he wants to be the best and get nationally recoginized then he's going to the right place.

I really don't understand what jocks going from east to west has to do with the situation. What's the worst thing that could happen? If he bombs in NY, he'll just go back west and his buisness will eventually go back to normal. It's not like it's that deep of a colony out there Vic.

Now I have no idea if of Rosario's personal life, but I wish I could spend the summer in Saratoga. As far as NY goes, Belmont and Aqueduct are what 10 miles from each other. Besides what about the times that he will be able to ride in muliple races at different tracks on the same day. Can't do that from California. Ok winters on the inner can be brutal, but Ramon deals with it. If Joel rides to his ability he should have no problem going to Florida and getting mounts for the winter if he doesn't want to brave the cold. So obviously I'm not buying the logistics deal either.

Not sure what you are saying about his mornings, but I almost feel like you are trying to knock a hole in his work ethic. As far as the agents colluding to freeze out other jocks, isn't that another knock? If he's so dominant, why do the agents need to do that. Shouldn't all the trainers be knocking down his door?

I just feel like for a guy who used to be his agent and friend who raved about his ability all the time, this is far from the strong vote of confidence that I would expect from you. Not even a good luck Joel, I just find the whole commentary very strange and disappointing. Makes me think that this is just a case of sour grapes.

[clambeau]

We don't have to understand Vic...we just have to hear him

[pointman]

Originally Posted by MaTH716

I really don't understand your plea/post. Wouldn't a good goal be, trying to be the best of your profession? OK, he has accomplished a lot in California and no one is taking anything away from him. Although dominant might be a bit over the top, especially when the feeling seems to be (or at least the one I get) is that Raffie is the go to money guy out there. But I agree he has done very well for himself out there. But possibly it's to the point where he feels like he's accomplished all he's going to accomplish out there and he's starting to spin his wheels. If he wants to be the best and get nationally recoginized then he's going to the right place.

I really don't understand what jocks going from east to west has to do with the situation. What's the worst thing that could happen? If he bombs in NY, he'll just go back west and his buisness will eventually go back to normal. It's not like it's that deep of a colony out there Vic.

Now I have no idea if of Rosario's personal life, but I wish I could spend the summer in Saratoga. As far as NY goes, Belmont and Aqueduct are what 10 miles from each other. Besides what about the times that he will be able to ride in muliple races at different tracks on the same day. Can't do that from California. Ok winters on the inner can be brutal, but Ramon deals with it. If Joel rides to his ability he should have no problem going to Florida and getting mounts for the winter if he doesn't want to brave the cold. So obviously I'm not buying the logistics deal either.

Not sure what you are saying about his mornings, but I almost feel like you are trying to knock a hole in his work ethic. As far as the agents colluding to freeze out other jocks, isn't that another knock? If he's so dominant, why do the agents need to do that. Shouldn't all the trainers be knocking down his door?

I just feel like for a guy who used to be his agent and friend who raved about his ability all the time, this is far from the strong vote of confidence that I would expect from you. Not even a good luck Joel, I just find the whole commentary very strange and disappointing. Makes me think that this is just a case of sour grapes.

Having represented many jockeys over the years including Joel my post was an opinion about what I would advise and think would be in his best interests professionally. Period.

I totally understand wanting to conquer new challenges and have new life's experiences. I get that. Especially for a young man like Joel. Furthermore I 100% agree he can leave, come back, and be embraced and dominant immediately.

As far as East/West goes. There can only be three guys in the top three in each place. Duh! Joel is unquestionably 1 or 2 here in California. Based on the last 3 years I would say #1. Heady stuff and believe me being leading rider is VERY important to these guys.

To expect to be on top in NY at least for the immediate is unreasonable. Joel rode here for 2 years before breaking into the top five. So lot's of time and effort will have to be put in. No doubt in my mind he has the talent to do it. My question is why bother when he's already a kingpin here? He's a 20 something and I'm a set in my ways old fart of 53 so again I do understand.

As far as his work ethic. I view that as just the opposite. I'm not knocking him at all. When I had his book it was occasionally an issue. I felt it was the difference between him being 3rd to Gomez and Bejarano and being No. 1. It's something alot of young millionaires in many sports must have to focus on. He was getting a thousand times better towards the end of our working together and now with Ronnie he misses no mornings or afternoons. I truly believe Ronnie is better for Joel than I was. He's more of a friend while I felt some generational friction. I think I pestered and pushed a little more than he liked while Ronnie approaches motivation from a different angle and Joel has responded wonderfully.

I have no more sour grapes than any other human he felt was unjustly fired. However I've moved on. My relationship with Joel is friendly and respectful. I'm certainly happy when he does well. I root for him always and take some pride in knowing I was instumental in his success and ascent to becoming an elite rider.

Agents that have enough power and business to work together and freeze others out is tried and true good business. Be it horseracing or any other endeavour. I never did that with Joe Ferrer cuz I liked the competetion too much. Just wanted to beat him straight up. Rarely did. Talk about top flight agents. That guy is the Black Mamba.

[Alabama Stakes]

Rosario will be the leading rider at Saratoga. Y'all forget about the most important thing....hosses run for him. He's damn good.

[DaTruth]

At least Vic is remotely related to the subject of this thread, so it is somewhat understandable that the thread has become about him. In comparison, it took some serious hubris for Vic to insert himself into the discussion about IHA missing the Belmont. http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47071

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by Alabama Stakes

Rosario will be the leading rider at Saratoga. Y'all forget about the most important thing....hosses run for him. He's damn good.

When you make the most ridiculous post in a thread where Vic Stauffer is prevalent you have accomplished something. Congratulations.

Originally Posted by Alabama Stakes

Rosario will be the leading rider at Saratoga. Y'all forget about the most important thing....hosses run for him. He's damn good.

He's a horse whisperer, eh? Explain his stats this year in graded stakes compared to the top 5.

I guess those guys that are much better statistically when it matters are part horse, eh?

[paulo537]

Ok.

For 2012, through May, Rosario is 4th in Graded wins behind JRV, Castellano and Ramon D.

For 2011:

Rank/Jockey/ Tot Graded Wins/ (G1-G2-G3) Graded Stakes W%

1, Velasquez/32/(7,5,15)/ 13%
2. Dominguez/27/(10,5,12)/ 8%
3. Castellano/26/(11,8,7)/ 9%
4. Rosario/ 25/(9-8-8)/ 9%

Other Graded win %'s for the rest of the top 10:

Bejarano 9%
Gomez 15%
Garcia 13%
Lezcano 10%
Leparoux 7%
Maragh 10%

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by paulo537

Ok.

For 2012, through May, Rosario is 4th in Graded wins behind JRV, Castellano and Ramon D.

For 2011:

Rank/Jockey/ Tot Graded Wins/ (G1-G2-G3) Graded Stakes W%

1, Velasquez/32/(7,5,15)/ 13%
2. Dominguez/27/(10,5,12)/ 8%
3. Castellano/26/(11,8,7)/ 9%
4. Rosario/ 25/(9-8-8)/ 9%

Other Graded win %'s for the rest of the top 10:

Bejarano 9%
Gomez 15%
Garcia 13%
Lezcano 10%
Leparoux 7%
Maragh 10%

Where did you get these stats? I don't think they're accurate for 2012.

[Calzone Lord]

Rosario hasn't been riding up to his high standard of late. However, he's made. He doesn't need to anymore.

Here is Rosario's stats in route races over the past 12 months:

Starts: 512
Win %: 21%
ROI: $1.47


He's losing 26.5% on every dollar bet -- and he's no longer a fierce ground saver. He looks for the clean, clear, wide trip way more often than ever before. He had Creative Cause about 8-wide the entire way around the far turn in the Kentucky Derby.

In the Preakness, it was he and not Hastings Park nobuddy Mario Guitereaz, who used his horse a little early to try and keep Bodemeister a little honest.

The thing I loved about Ramon Dominguez -- even after he long established himself as the kingpin of the Mid-Atlantic circuit and had earned the best mounts. He didn't just go out and try and settle for the clean, clear, wide trip with everything.

Quite the opposite, Dominguez would park himself on the rail (even with favorites) and try and save every morsel of ground on the turns. The guy went 9 out of 10 years where he produced a strong profitable ROI in turf route races. That's never been done before.

Dominguez eventually had to get away from his great habits a little bit in New York -- but he is still someone who will save ground on turns and he is still a master of getting out of jams. He was fun to watch in the Mid-Atlantic though, he had no panic in him and a lot of times would make Houdini like escapes and win with horses who were sometimes 3rd or 4th best.

[Alabama Stakes]

Originally Posted by Alabama Stakes

Rosario will be the leading rider at Saratoga. Y'all forget about the most important thing....hosses run for him. He's damn good.

maybe this year

[blackthroatedwind]

It's also pretty interesting that Vic conveniently left Richard Migliore's West Coast success out of his argument. I guess when you are knocking Hall of Famers that ventured West when the majority of board members weren't even born yet, it's easy to dismiss the efforts and successes of one of the true good guys in this industry, especially when it happened just a few years ago. Why applaud the truly deserving when you can unfairly besmirch the achievements of others.

[DaTruth]

Robbie Davis did fairly well when he rode in Southern California in 1989 and 1990. He ended up winning seven stakes at the 1989 Del Mar meet.

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

It's also pretty interesting that Vic conveniently left Richard Migliore's West Coast success out of his argument. I guess when you are knocking Hall of Famers that ventured West when the majority of board members weren't even born yet, it's easy to dismiss the efforts and successes of one of the true good guys in this industry, especially when it happened just a few years ago. Why applaud the truly deserving when you can unfairly besmirch the achievements of others.

Huge fan of Richard Migliore. Was lucky enough to get to know him a bit when working for Joel. Very talented rider and consumate professional.