Lasix enhances performance

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

Don't shoot the messenger. Please tell me what is wrong in the article I posted rather than being a blowhard. You sound like another horsemen that would follow the Pied Piper into the sea, which is how we got to this point in the first place.

Originally Posted by cmorioles

It isn't just spending the money. In what alternate reality world is it acceptable just to give drugs to nearly every participant, and those that don't take it are at a disadvantage. I mean really, that is nuts.

You are saying if you don't want to drug your horse you are at a disadvantage, but that is fine...just can drug them all. And who cares if they have to spend $20, we rob them so many other ways. So those not using drugs are penalized. Nice. Maybe the NTRA could adapt that as a new slogan. I guess it beats "Go, Baby, Go", right. I like the ring to it..."Drug them all!"

I'm glad you are stated to be neutral on the subject lol. Let's just agree to disagree because I feel silly having to refute Sid Guftason. This is like trying to explain why dailykos.com isn't a credible source of information on GOP topics.

[cmorioles]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I'm glad you are stated to be neutral on the subject lol. Let's just agree to disagree because I feel silly having to refute Sid Guftason. This is like trying to explain why dailykos.com isn't a credible source of information on GOP topics.

Is he the equivalent of listening to a 5% trainer?

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by cmorioles

This sounds like a fact to me:

"The more Lasix, and the closer it is administered to the race, the more intense the alkalinization effect of Lasix, according to the science presented at the K.H.R.C. race-day medication hearing. Lasix alkalinizes horses, creating a competitive metabolic advantage similar to milkshaking, rendering the drug Lasix a clear and present doping agent. "

By all means, tell me what is wrong with that statement.

"Drug Them All"...I'm really liking that. I see a real boon to the sport if this takes off.

[quote=cmorioles;864342]Is he the equivalent of listening to a 5% trainer?[/

Janet del Castillo sells books on training

[Indian Charlie]

Orioles, when people have too much invested into their belief systems, they are almost always unwilling to look at countering viewpoints with even a tiny bit of objectivity.

Give it up man. You fought the good fight, but zealotry will beat reason every time.

[Danzig]

When there is opposition, how does one decide who is the zealot filled with emotion, and who uses logic? Or is it based solely on who one is in agreement with?

I have asked several times without a reposne from cm. What is your opinion on what is best for the horse?

If

You dont know who will bleed or when, or how severely
You say lasix causes no harm to the horse when used,
Its clearly given info to bettors, And is available to all,

What is the problem? Cm, you say, and reference someone, who says lasix enhances performance. Yet ive seen others who say it does not. How is it an issue tho, if it did enhance but everyone uses it? Exactly what is it that you find so troublesome? What do you expect to occur if there is a ban? I posted where NY had an 80 % reduction in visible bleeding after allowing lasix. Do you wish to see a possible 80% increase should lasix be banned?

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Danzig

If

You dont know who will bleed or when, or how severely
You say lasix causes no harm to the horse when used,
Its clearly given info to bettors, And is available to all,

What is the problem? Cm, you say, and reference someone, who says lasix enhances performance. Yet ive seen others who say it does not. How is it an issue tho, if it did enhance but everyone uses it? Exactly what is it that you find so troublesome?

It might be useful to delve into the side effects of lasix, given that we've been taking for granted that it "causes no harm" in multiple threads now. Lasix effects the hydration status and acid-bace balance of horses about to undergo strenuous exercise. As a result, the potential exists for horses to be exposed to disturbances related to those parameters. These might include "thumps", "tying up", and colic. It would be interesting to know the frequency of these side effects. Though never proven definitely, an adverse reaction to lasix administration was suggested as the cause of Life At Ten's performance at the 2010 Breeder's Cup. Given the public fallout that occurred afterwards, was that an acceptable alternative to a horse bleeding out the nose in front of the grandstands?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

It might be useful to delve into the side effects of lasix, given that we've been taking for granted that it "causes no harm" in multiple threads now. Lasix effects the hydration status and acid-bace balance of horses about to undergo strenuous exercise. As a result, the potential exists for horses to be exposed to disturbances related to those parameters. These might include "thumps", "tying up", and colic. It would be interesting to know the frequency of these side effects. Though never proven definitely, an adverse reaction to lasix administration was suggested as the cause of Life At Ten's performance at the 2010 Breeder's Cup. Given the public fallout that occurred afterwards, was that an acceptable alternative to a horse bleeding out the nose in front of the grandstands?

The information you want has been known for years. Read any basic pharmacology text. Lasix is a very well-used and common drug in multiple species, for decades.

Lasix similar to effect of a milkshake? Ridiculous. Lasix has a minor adjustment to elevation of pH (we know that, because that has actually been measured multiple times) but nowhere near what a milkshake does (we know that, because it's been actually measured multiple times).

In fact, our intimate knowledge of the difference in blood pH affects between heat, humidity, lasix, certain feeds, etc. and what a milkshake does is why testing TCO2 levels are set precisely where they are.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

It might be useful to delve into the side effects of lasix, given that we've been taking for granted that it "causes no harm" in multiple threads now. Lasix effects the hydration status and acid-bace balance of horses about to undergo strenuous exercise. As a result, the potential exists for horses to be exposed to disturbances related to those parameters. These might include "thumps", "tying up", and colic. It would be interesting to know the frequency of these side effects. Though never proven definitely, an adverse reaction to lasix administration was suggested as the cause of Life At Ten's performance at the 2010 Breeder's Cup. Given the public fallout that occurred afterwards, was that an acceptable alternative to a horse bleeding out the nose in front of the grandstands?

The side effects of lasix are minor at worst.

Anyone who believes that the horse had an adverse rection to lasix is a very trusting soul.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

It might be useful to delve into the side effects of lasix, given that we've been taking for granted that it "causes no harm" in multiple threads now. Lasix effects the hydration status and acid-bace balance of horses about to undergo strenuous exercise. As a result, the potential exists for horses to be exposed to disturbances related to those parameters. These might include "thumps", "tying up", and colic. It would be interesting to know the frequency of these side effects. Though never proven definitely, an adverse reaction to lasix administration was suggested as the cause of Life At Ten's performance at the 2010 Breeder's Cup. Given the public fallout that occurred afterwards, was that an acceptable alternative to a horse bleeding out the nose in front of the grandstands?

i think the fallout had to do with the fact that a lot of bettors lost out on betting a horse who should have been scratched. i know lasix was suggested as a possible reason for her lackluster performance.
now, when i read the other day that there was an 80% reduction in visible bleeding by horses in NY once the lasix ban was lifted....well, what else is there to say? do we really want an 80% increase in bleeders? we already have negative attention because of breakdowns, what will happen if horses start coming by the grandstand with blood coming out of their nostrils? or horses collapsing because of a bad enough hemorrage? and that does happen. i firmly believe that it's better to prevent something than to take a risk-that it's a lesser 'evil' if you will.

[my miss storm cat]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Orioles, when people have too much invested into their belief systems, they are almost always unwilling to look at countering viewpoints with even a tiny bit of objectivity.

Give it up man. You fought the good fight, but zealotry will beat reason every time.

I have nothing of any significance to add except that this is for Mr. Orioles as I am in awe of his eloquence, his stamina, his steadfastness, his persuasiveness.

How he doesn't lose it is beyond me. I would have blown my head off by now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxAKFlpdcfc

Carry on.

[Round Pen]

Has anyone actually taken the time to read the link in the NY times article which directs you to the Minutes from the KRHC meeting I think Dr Sids Comments start at Page 169 (I think). HE has the Solution to Stop Horses From Bleeding,The only thing is You might have to live in Fantasy land to Implement his ideals.

[Round Pen]

Was Just reading on the Thorograph Forum and ran accross this comment about this subject which I wanted to share with You guys:

Brief comment as requested by TGJB:

Lasix as one injection prior to a race or work has a predictably very minor and small raise in blood pH, nowhere near what milkshaking does to the blood pH. The TCO2 levels we measure, what is "over" and not, takes this small and predictable rise into consideration. It is about the same alkalynizing effect as some normal feeds and weather.

This vet is way over the line calling lasix the same as a milkshake. That's patently absurd.

And it sure sounds like this guy was involved with (exposed to) alot of cheating. But he says he was with standardbreds in the 1960's, 70's, 80's so yes, that was true 30 years ago (standardbred guys would do anything to a horse - the thoroughbred guys would follow their leads)

It's no longer 30 years ago.

[Fearless Leader]

Originally Posted by my miss storm cat

I have nothing of any significance to add except that this is for Mr. Orioles as I am in awe of his eloquence, his stamina, his steadfastness, his persuasiveness.

How he doesn't lose it is beyond me. I would have blown my head off by now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxAKFlpdcfc

Carry on.

Reading this guy's never ending, misguided, ridiculous, inaccurate rantings has me wanting to blow my own head off. I feel dumber for having read them.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Orioles, when people have too much invested into their belief systems, they are almost always unwilling to look at countering viewpoints with even a tiny bit of objectivity.

Give it up man. You fought the good fight, but zealotry will beat reason every time.

It isnt a belief system. It is called experience in the field combined with a working knowledge of the substances plus frank, off the record discussions with those who would be considered experts.

http://www.amazon.com/Drugs-Performa...36575&sr=8-1#_

Just read this book written 30 years ago and you will find why so much of what is being said is complete bs.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Just read this book written 30 years ago and you will find why so much of what is being said is complete bs.

Choice quotes from earlier in this thread:

It's no longer 30 years ago.

Personally I believe trying to turn the clock back 30 years... to be a waste of time.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Choice quotes from earlier in this thread:

It's no longer 30 years ago.

Personally I believe trying to turn the clock back 30 years... to be a waste of time.

I think Chuck's point is that we knew most of this most basic drug information 30 years ago. We've been using lasix in race horses for over 40 years.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Choice quotes from earlier in this thread:

It's no longer 30 years ago.

Personally I believe trying to turn the clock back 30 years... to be a waste of time.

What that book does very clearly is show that the bullshit that we are fed about what was going on in the pollyanna days prior to lasix use is not how it is actually was. While the testing has advanced it is very obvious that many of the same drugs that are being passed off as inventions of the modern day trainer were actually in use in the 70's and in some cases at much, much higher allowable levels.

Funny how everything was great back then but now those same things are the enemy of the horse.