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Old 04-18-2012, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Riot View Post
That's a very good analogy, actually.

I cannot consider lasix a performance enhancer any more than preventative inhaler asthma meds are for a running athlete who happens to have asthma. Lasix enables a horse to run to their peak, by helping prevent the development of a medical condition that will inhibit running ability by suffocating the horse in it's own blood to a lesser or greater degree.
I would buy that if it wasn't used so liberally. I'll just never believe that every horse in North America needs it, yet they get it anyway. Since it isn't free, it seems a lot of trainers feel they need it to level the playing field, i.e. it enhances performance.

Many of the European horses that don't need it ship for the BC and they get it anyway. Why is that? European trainers seem to think it is a performance enhancer. Are they just uneducated? The ones that don't get it rarely run to their odds. Just coincidence?
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Old 04-18-2012, 11:12 PM
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Anyone can poke around at www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Use EIPH and race horse as your search terms

I found these with EIPH furosemide speed as the search terms

Quote:
J Am Vet Med Assoc. 1999 Sep 1;215(5):670-5.

Effect of furosemide on performance of Thoroughbreds racing in the United States and Canada.

Gross DK, Morley PS, Hinchcliff KW, Wittum TE.
Source

Department of Veterinary Preventive Medicine, College of Veterinary Medicine, The Ohio State University, Columbus 43210, USA.
Abstract

OBJECTIVE: To determine the effect of furosemide on performance of Thoroughbreds racing on dirt surfaces at tracks in the United States and Canada.

DESIGN: Cross-sectional study.

ANIMALS: All Thoroughbreds (n = 22,589) that finished a race on dirt surfaces at tracks in the United States and Canada between June 28 and July 13, 1997 in jurisdictions that allowed the use of furosemide.

PROCEDURE: Race records were analyzed by use of multivariable ANOVA procedures and logistic regression analyses to determine the effect of furosemide on estimated 6-furlong race time, estimated racing speed, race earnings, and finish position. Principal component analysis was used to create orthogonal scores from multiple collinear variables for inclusion in the models.

RESULTS: Furosemide was administered to 16,761 (74.2%) horses. Horses that received furosemide raced faster, earned more money, and were more likely to win or finish in the top 3 positions than horses that did not. The magnitude of the effect of furosemide on estimated 6-furlong race time varied with sex, with the greatest effect in males.

When comparing horses of the same sex, horses receiving furosemide had an estimated 6-furlong race time that ranged from 0.56 +/- 0.04 seconds (least-squares mean +/- SE) to 1.09 +/- 0.07 seconds less than that for horses not receiving furosemide, a difference equivalent to 3 to 5.5 lengths.

CONCLUSIONS AND CLINICAL RELEVANCE:

Because of the pervasive use of furosemide and its apparent association with superior performance in Thoroughbred racehorses, further consideration of the use of furosemide and investigation of its effects in horses is warranted.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10476714
Quote:
Am J Vet Res. 1990 May;51(5):772-8.

Effects of furosemide on the racing times of Thoroughbreds.

Sweeney CR, Soma LR, Maxson AD, Thompson JE, Holcombe SJ, Spencer PA.
Source

Department of Clinical Studies, New Bolton Center, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Pennsylvania, Kennett Square 19348.
Abstract

The effects of furosemide on the racing times of 79 horses without exercise-induced pulmonary hemorrhage (EIPH) and 52 horses with EIPH were investigated.

Racing times were adjusted to 1-mile equivalent racing times by 2 speed handicapping methods, and analysis of covariance was used to adjust actual racing times by winning time and distance for each race.

All 3 methods of determining racing time indicated that geldings without EIPH had significantly faster racing times (P less than 0.05) when given furosemide before racing than when furosemide was not given before racing.

Females and colts without EIPH were determined to have faster racing times when furosemide was given before racing, but the difference was not significant.

Geldings with EIPH had significantly faster racing times (P = 0.0231) when given furosemide before racing, as determined by one of the speed handicapping methods.

There was a strong correlation (range 0.9314 to 0.9751) between the 1-mile equivalent racing times, as determined by the 2 speed handicapping methods for horses with and without EIPH.

Furosemide failed to prevent the development of EIPH in many horses that were previously considered to be EIPH-negative.

When given furosemide, 62 (25.3%) of 235 EIPH-negative horses were EIPH-positive after racing.

Furosemide had questionable efficacy for prevention of EIPH in known EIPH-positive horses.

Thirty-two (61.5%) of 52 EIPH-positive horses given furosemide before a race remained EIPH-positive after that race.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2337276
Quote:
Am J Vet Res. 1980 Aug;41(8):1183-9.

Effects of furosemide on cardiovascular function and performance when given prior to simulated races: a double-blind study.

Milne DW, Gabel AA, Muir WW, Skarda RT, Hamlin RL, Pipers FS.
Abstract

In a double-blind study under simulated racing conditions, six Standardbred horses, which had been trained for 12 weeks, were given 1 mg of furosemide/kg of body weight or saline solution IV 15 minutes before the first of two warm-up workouts (1.6 km at 60-minute intervals).

Sixty minutes later, 135 minutes after drug or placebo injection, these horses were driven 1.6 km at maximum speed.

Heart rate, respiratory rate, cardiac output, pulmonary trunk pressure, body temperature, PCV, arterial oxygen, and plasma lactic acid were recorded during and after the first warm-up workout and after a simulated race (1.6 km).

Values increased compared with values determined at rest whether saline solution or furosemide was given.

There were decreases in arterial CO2 and pH. When furosemide was given, the pulmonary trunk pressure was significantly lower (P < 0.05) during the first warm-up workout (1.6 km). There were no significant differences in the other values.

The average times of the simulated races were not significantly (P < 0.05) different after the use of furosemide compared with average times after use of saline solution.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6778267
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Old 04-19-2012, 07:20 AM
Danzig Danzig is offline
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Originally Posted by cmorioles View Post
I would buy that if it wasn't used so liberally. I'll just never believe that every horse in North America needs it, yet they get it anyway. Since it isn't free, it seems a lot of trainers feel they need it to level the playing field, i.e. it enhances performance.

Many of the European horses that don't need it ship for the BC and they get it anyway. Why is that? European trainers seem to think it is a performance enhancer. Are they just uneducated? The ones that don't get it rarely run to their odds. Just coincidence?
but aren't many using it because of what it prevents? horses can have an episode without having given a previous warning. i know some horses have had a significant amount of bleeding and have never bled before.
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Old 04-19-2012, 10:35 AM
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but aren't many using it because of what it prevents? horses can have an episode without having given a previous warning. i know some horses have had a significant amount of bleeding and have never bled before.
And isn't it the crux of the issue? Was Lasix originally legalized as a preventative measure for non-bleeders? Of course not, it was used to try to cure those that had bled.
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Old 04-19-2012, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by cmorioles View Post
And isn't it the crux of the issue? Was Lasix originally legalized as a preventative measure for non-bleeders? Of course not, it was used to try to cure those that had bled.
And if they had known then that it would be a preventative for the issue that they were trying to cure what makes you think that they wouldn't have allowed it?
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Old 04-19-2012, 03:42 PM
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And isn't it the crux of the issue? Was Lasix originally legalized as a preventative measure for non-bleeders? Of course not, it was used to try to cure those that had bled.
it's to prevent bleeding as well. if you don't know when it'll strike, it seems treating after is not nearly as good an outcome as prevention would be. if you can keep a horse from bleeding, for some severely, why wouldn't you? other countries don't allow horses who have had bleeding episodes to breed-so they send any who end up bleeding out of country to race before they get too many episodes. the fact they still have bleeders with those rules points to the fact that it may not be just genetic, if they're trying to weed them out, yet still get them.
i know if i could take medications that would prevent illness and damage, i would. i wouldn't wait til i had an episode-a bit late then, isn't it?
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Old 04-19-2012, 09:50 PM
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And isn't it the crux of the issue? Was Lasix originally legalized as a preventative measure for non-bleeders? Of course not, it was used to try to cure those that had bled.
Unfortunately lasix has never been proved to prevent EPIH. If it doesn't prevent why the nearly 100% use in USA racing?
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Old 04-19-2012, 10:10 PM
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Unfortunately lasix has never been proved to prevent EPIH. If it doesn't prevent why the nearly 100% use in USA racing?
Lasix has been proven to markedly decrease the incidence and severity of EIPH in a quantitative and qualitative manner. As previously discussed in this thread, there are thought to be multifactoral causes of EIPH, and yes, lasix does not prevent EIPH in 100% of horses. Just the vast majority.

This is the valid veterinary medical proof of the drugs efficacy over decades, and there is no "opinion" available on that matter. The evidence is so strong, and the benefit to the race horse so obvious, that the American Association of Equine Practitioners and the American Veterinary Medical Association both support keeping lasix as an approved race day therapeutic medication, while they support the elimination of every single other medication we have for race day use.
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Old 04-19-2012, 10:24 PM
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Lasix has been proven to markedly decrease the incidence and severity of EIPH in a quantitative and qualitative manner.
When and where was this published?
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Old 04-19-2012, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by RolloTomasi View Post
When and where was this published?


Well, you can read the 120 available studies on the subject over the past 40-50 years by clicking on this link and entering the words

EIPH equine

in the search term box at the top.

Then hit "search".

If you enter the terms EIPH equine lasix you'll get another 28 studies that are more specific.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/
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Old 04-20-2012, 02:54 AM
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Lasix has been proven to markedly decrease the incidence and severity of EIPH in a quantitative and qualitative manner. As previously discussed in this thread, there are thought to be multifactoral causes of EIPH, and yes, lasix does not prevent EIPH in 100% of horses. Just the vast majority.

This is the valid veterinary medical proof of the drugs efficacy over decades, and there is no "opinion" available on that matter. The evidence is so strong, and the benefit to the race horse so obvious, that the American Association of Equine Practitioners and the American Veterinary Medical Association both support keeping lasix as an approved race day therapeutic medication, while they support the elimination of every single other medication we have for race day use.
Unfortunately that is not true. There is no prove. Yes a study in South Africa seemed to indicate a lessening of EIPH. This certainly was not extensive study. No one seems to every refer to the head Vet who testified before Congress that their extensive study didn't show Lasix to perform as a deterrent of bleeding in horses and was used as a masking agent for other PEDs.That is right in the congressional record.
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Old 04-20-2012, 11:32 AM
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Unfortunately that is not true. There is no prove. Yes a study in South Africa seemed to indicate a lessening of EIPH. This certainly was not extensive study. No one seems to every refer to the head Vet who testified before Congress that their extensive study didn't show Lasix to perform as a deterrent of bleeding in horses and was used as a masking agent for other PEDs.That is right in the congressional record.
Perhaps because the preponderance of other evidence doesn't support that postion.

This is not an opinion matter. It's either true, or it isn't. And there are at least 50 current studies that show that yes, lasix mitigates exercise-induced pulmonary hemorrhage. That's not my opinion. It's fact.

You can go check it yourself at the links I have given.

It's scientific, measurable fact as publicly supported by the American Veterinary Medical Association and the American Association of Equine Practitioners.

As said before: does it stop bleeding in all horses? No, as EIPH has multifactoral causes. And nobody has ever maintained that. Does it decrease the extent of bleeding in most, and stop it in some? Yes, indeed.

The comment about not being able to find drugs in dilute urine is laughable nonsense that was last true about 25 years ago.

This type of ridiculous misinformation, deliberate ignoring of facts to support a predetermined political agenda, is exactly what is dangerous to this sport, but more importantly, the health of our horses.

You can't fix deliberate, purposeful ignorance.

Lasix can be banned in US racing, if racing wants no drugs at all to be used. But trying to ban it based upon decades-old falsehoods and ridiculous lies needs to be confronted for the scientifically disproven fantasy it is.
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Old 04-20-2012, 11:39 AM
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Unfortunately that is not true. There is no prove. Yes a study in South Africa seemed to indicate a lessening of EIPH. This certainly was not extensive study. No one seems to every refer to the head Vet who testified before Congress that their extensive study didn't show Lasix to perform as a deterrent of bleeding in horses and was used as a masking agent for other PEDs.That is right in the congressional record.
There is plenty of proof you just choose to ignore it. The vet that testified in front of congress is an animal rights activist who was brought in specifically to preach. I have 30 years experience with thoroughbred racehorses and it has been my experience over those 30 years that lasix helps considerably with horses who bled and was a far better method of controlling bleeding than what we used prior to its use. Of course there might have just been a few decades worth of coincidences and maybe we just lucky all those years???

And Rafael Palmeiro also is in the congressional record as stating that he never took steroids....


I think what so many people miss here is that bleeding is not a big problem anymore because we have the ability to use lasix to combat it. No lasix means that the problem will worsen and a whole cottage industry will rise consisting of things that will be used to try to tackle the issue. In the end the lack of lasix will have a detrimental effect on the horses.
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Old 04-20-2012, 11:51 AM
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Unfortunately that is not true. There is no prove. Yes a study in South Africa seemed to indicate a lessening of EIPH. This certainly was not extensive study. No one seems to every refer to the head Vet who testified before Congress that their extensive study didn't show Lasix to perform as a deterrent of bleeding in horses and was used as a masking agent for other PEDs.That is right in the congressional record.
As an attorney who does significant personal injury and medical malpractice in addition to criminal law, I can assure you that with the right money you can find a doctor or vet to say just about anything.

There will be conclusions generally on both sides of an issue like this, you just have to wade through them and determine where the majority seem to lean and the ones that make more logical sense.

Prevention is not the only purpose of the drug, reduction is just as important if not more than prevention.

Last edited by pointman : 04-20-2012 at 12:27 PM.
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Old 04-19-2012, 11:42 PM
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Unfortunately lasix has never been proved to prevent EPIH. If it doesn't prevent why the nearly 100% use in USA racing?
I've been asking the same question.
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Old 04-19-2012, 11:45 PM
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I've been asking the same question.
But ignoring the answers.
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Old 04-19-2012, 11:58 PM
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But ignoring the answers.
So by your latest study we give drugs to 99% of horses Lasix because 64% have microscopic bleeding?
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Old 04-19-2012, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by cmorioles View Post
I would buy that if it wasn't used so liberally. I'll just never believe that every horse in North America needs it, yet they get it anyway. Since it isn't free, it seems a lot of trainers feel they need it to level the playing field, i.e. it enhances performance.

Many of the European horses that don't need it ship for the BC and they get it anyway. Why is that? European trainers seem to think it is a performance enhancer. Are they just uneducated? The ones that don't get it rarely run to their odds. Just coincidence?
Dont take offense but you are just guessing here. How can anyone determine what horses need or dont need lasix unless you can accurately pinpoint when a horse may have a bleeding episode? Trainers use it because it is a cheap, easy way to help your horse NOT bleed and with those who have bled before to try to prevent another episode. I'm sure you will counter with they can still bleed through lasix or it isnt proven to prevent bleeding (though I dont know how you could prove that given you rarely have any clue when your horse may bleed) but it is still a pretty effective, easy to use medication with few side effects. It isn't unlike wearing a seatbelt. A seatbelt might not save your life in a car wreck everytime but you sure do increase your chances with one.
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Old 04-19-2012, 07:15 PM
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It isn't unlike wearing a seatbelt. A seatbelt might not save your life in a car wreck everytime but you sure do increase your chances with one.
Except, of course, that it is still a drug. You can't convince me that every horse needs a drug to run. The reason every horse gets is because trainers also believe it is a performance enhancer. I've heard many say as much.
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Old 04-19-2012, 08:07 PM
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Except, of course, that it is still a drug. You can't convince me that every horse needs a drug to run. The reason every horse gets is because trainers also believe it is a performance enhancer. I've heard many say as much.
It would probably be in your best interest to find some different trainers to associate with. I suggest looking for a few that actually know what they are talking about.
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