When "Neighborhood Watch" Gets Out of Hand

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Riot

..

I'm not going to tear down that essay piece by piece, which would be easy to do. I will just respond to one thing in there. I would simply ask the author the same question that I asked you. My question to the author would be this: Would Zimmerman have followed Trayvon had Trayvon been Latino? If the answer is no, then my question would be, "How do you know that?"

If your answer is either that you think Zimmerman would have followed Trayvon even if Trayvon had been Latino, or if you you don't know whether Zimmerman would have followed a Latino Trayvon, then how can you say Zimmerman was racist?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

I'm not going to tear down that essay piece by piece, which would be easy to do. I will just respond to one thing in there. I would simply ask the author the same question that I asked you. My question to the author would be this: Would Zimmerman have followed Trayvon had Trayvon been Latino? If the answer is no, then my question would be, "How do you know that?"

If your answer is either that you think Zimmerman would have followed Trayvon even if Trayvon had been Latino, or if you you don't know whether Zimmerman would have followed a Latino Trayvon, then how can you say Zimmerman was racist?

Because the only thing Zimmerman knew about Trayvon, when he telephoned the police about the kid being suspicious, was that he was male, and black. He wasn't doing anything. Pick the "suspicious" thing out of those facts. Must have been because a male was walking down the street! Gasp!

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Riot

Because the only thing Zimmerman knew about Trayvon, when he telephoned the police about the kid being suspicious, was that he was male, and black. He wasn't doing anything. Pick the "suspicious" thing out of those facts. Must have been because a male was walking down the street! Gasp!

The truth of the matter is we don't know whether Zimmerman would have called the police if Trayvon was Latino. If you think there is a chance that he would have, then you can't say that he only called because Trayvon was black.

I do agree with you that Trayvon being a male was probably a factor in Zimmerman calling the police. I doubt he would have been following the person or calling the police if it had been a 65 year old woman (of any race). Young and male is obviously going to be perceived by most people to be a bigger threat than old and female. I guess that makes people sexist and ageist. Is there a such word as ageist?

Have you ever seen a person who you thought was up to no good? I would find it extremely hard to believe that in your whole life, you never saw a person that you were either afraid of or thought was up to no good, even though the person wasn't doing anything. I know I have seen people that I thought were up to no good. It had nothing to do with their race. It was simply their body language. They hadn't committed a crime yet but their body language looked like they were waiting to do something. I'm sure I was dead wrong in some of the cases. But in some of the cases I know I was right because a couple of times the police arrested the person a short time later. You could say the person was doing nothing. That is true. I hadn't seen them commit a crime. They were either just standing there or walking down the street but there was something in their body language that made me suspicious. Some of the people were white, some were black, and some were Latino. Race wasn't the issue.

I live in Los Angeles and there are a lot of homeless people here. Some of them are really nice. Most of them are harmless. But some of them are paranoid schizophrenics and they can lash out at you at any time. You need to be somewhat careful and you need to keep your eyes open. You need to watch their body language and rely on your instincts. Even if you have great instincts, you're not going to be right every time. You could get attacked by a person who looks harmless. By the same token, a person who looks menacing may turn out to be no threat.

In a big city there is a lot of crime and you need to keep your eyes open or you are going to end up being a crime victim. The main thing I look at is body language. I will obviously also consider age and gender. I obviously usually don't get too worried if I see a 65 year old woman coming towards me or if I see a 70 year old man walking his dog.

As neighborhood watch captain, I'm sure Zimmerman watched people's body language. I think we all do.

By the way, not a single black person has come forward and said that they had a bad experience with Zimmerman. If he was such a racist, I would think there would be some history of racist behavior on his part. Instead we have seen the opposite. Several black people have come forward and said what a nice guy Zimmerman was and that he showed no signs of being prejudice.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Have you ever seen a person who you thought was up to no good? I would find it extremely hard to believe that in your whole life, you never saw a person that you were either afraid of or thought was up to no good, even though the person wasn't doing anything. I know I have seen people that I thought were up to no good.

Deep stuff.

The main difference, naturally, is that the rest of us don't go around killing people because they look suspicious.

We call the police, if we're so inclined, and let them do their job. We don't stalk them, continue to do so against the urging of a 911 dispatcher, follow them between houses, and shoot them dead for reacting to our stalking while carrying lethal candy and iced tea.

But hey, he looked suspicious, so it probably worked out for the best. Minor details.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Deep stuff.

The main difference, naturally, is that the rest of us don't go around killing people because they look suspicious.

We call the police, if we're so inclined, and let them do their job. We don't stalk them, continue to do so against the urging of a 911 dispatcher, follow them between houses, and shoot them dead for reacting to our stalking while carrying lethal candy and iced tea.

But hey, he looked suspicious, so it probably worked out for the best. Minor details.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Deep stuff.

The main difference, naturally, is that the rest of us don't go around killing people because they look suspicious.

We call the police, if we're so inclined, and let them do their job. We don't stalk them, continue to do so against the urging of a 911 dispatcher, follow them between houses, and shoot them dead for reacting to our stalking while carrying lethal candy and iced tea.

But hey, he looked suspicious, so it probably worked out for the best. Minor details.

I don't think that Zimmerman would agree with your argument. I don't think he would say that he killed him because he looked suspicious. I think he would say that he killed him because he was attacked from behind while he was walking back to his car, he was getting the crap beaten out of him including having his head pounded against the pavement, and at that point he feared for his life as most people would if they were being beaten like that.

I think that is what Zimmerman would say as to the reason that he killed him. If there is any evidence that disputes that sequence of events I'm sure the prosecutors will find it.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

The truth of the matter is we don't know whether Zimmerman would have called the police if Trayvon was Latino. If you think there is a chance that he would have, then you can't say that he only called because Trayvon was black.

Why? Would Zimmerman have called if the kid was white? Asian? Irish? That proves nothing.

The point is Zimmerman saw a black kid walking, and called in to the police that the kid was suspicious, "on drugs", "I don't know what his deal is", "he has has hand in his waistband", etc.

All Zimmerman knew about the kid was that he was black and male. Period. There was no suspicious activity.

Again, walking while black - no longer a crime in the US, with the elimination of sunset laws.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, Rupert. We won't change each other's mind about the possible racial aspects of the murderer or the police department until the investigation is complete and we have all the information.

MSNBC reporting (from their website) FBI federal hate crime law investigation begins:

SANFORD, Fla. -- FBI agents on Monday were questioning potential witnesses in the Trayvon Martin shooting, confirming to NBC News that the agency had begun a "parallel investigation" that focuses on whether the teen's civil rights were violated.

Agents are seeking information on George Zimmerman's background and whether he was racially motivated when he pursued Martin after calling a 911 police dispatcher about his presence in the community, an FBI official told NBC.

The agents were at the Retreat at Twin Lakes, where Martin was shot dead by Zimmerman, the gated community's neighborhood watch captain.