When "Neighborhood Watch" Gets Out of Hand

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Danzig

just saw a headline this morning that the voice recognition guy said the screams weren't zimmerman.
and of course he will say trayvon attacked him-he just killed someone. you think he's not going to say he was defending himself?? the fact is had he not gotten out of his car and gone after him-which is what they told him not to do-we wouldn't be having this conversation. he had no reason to get out of the car, he had no reason or right to confront trayvon. on what basis did he accost the boy? and exactly what did he think he was going to accomplish by approaching a total stranger-with him having absolutely no authority to do so. even if he were a member of neighborhood watch-note the name. WATCH. no, try to emulate clint eastwood.
put yourself in trayvons shoes. you're walking home, with skittles and a drink. some guy is following you, which freaks you out. the guy's not a cop, not in a cop car, not a security guy. just a total stranger.

He probably got out his car and followed on foot because he wanted to be able to tell the police where Trayvon was when they got there. Trayvon had left the street and had gone down a grass path. Zimmerman would have lost him at that point if he didn't follow him on foot.

We don't know if Zimmerman had any intention of confronting Trayvon in any way. What may have happened is when he ran after Trayvon down the grass and then turned the corner, he found himself face to face with him. Zimmerman may have never planned on coming face to face with him.

I agree with you that it is possible that Zimmerman was the one who started the physical altercation. I can't sit here and tell you for sure that Zimmerman is telling the truth and that Trayvon attacked him first. Zimmerman could be lying. I haven't ruled that out. To answer your question about what justification Zimmerman had to attack Trayvon, if Zimmerman did in fact attack Trayvon first, I would say Zimmerman would have no justification. If that was how it happened, then Zimmerman is probably guilty of manslaughter.

I agree with you that Trayvon was probably scared or at least concerned when he saw some stranger following him. We will probably never know exactly what was said between the two of him. They say that Trayvon asked Zimmerman, "Why are you following me?" They say Zmmerman asked, "What are you doing here?" I wonder if Trayvon ever told him that he was simply going to his father's house. I wonder if Zimmerman ever told Trayvon that he was simply doing a neighborhood watch.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

He probably got out his car and followed on foot because he wanted to be able to tell the police where Trayvon was when they got there. Trayvon had left the street and had gone down a grass path. Zimmerman would have lost him at that point if he didn't follow him on foot.

We don't know if Zimmerman had any intention of confronting Trayvon in any way. What may have happened is when he ran after Trayvon down the grass and then turned the corner, he found himself face to face with him. Zimmerman may have never planned on coming face to face with him.

I agree with you that it is possible that Zimmerman was the one who started the physical altercation. I can't sit here and tell you for sure that Zimmerman is telling the truth and that Trayvon attacked him first. Zimmerman could be lying. I haven't ruled that out. To answer your question about what justification Zimmerman had to attack Trayvon, if Zimmerman did in fact attack Trayvon first, I would say Zimmerman would have no justification. If that was how it happened, then Zimmerman is probably guilty of manslaughter.

I agree with you that Trayvon was probably scared or at least concerned when he saw some stranger following him. We will probably never know exactly what was said between the two of him. They say that Trayvon asked Zimmerman, "Why are you following me?" They say Zmmerman asked, "What are you doing here?" I wonder if Trayvon ever told him that he was simply going to his father's house. I wonder if Zimmerman ever told Trayvon that he was simply doing a neighborhood watch.

Dispatcher told him specifically NOT TO FOLLOW. Anything that happend after that conversation would make him the agressor if I were on the jury.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by jms62

Dispatcher told him specifically NOT TO FOLLOW. Anything that happend after that conversation would make him the agressor if I were on the jury.

that's right. but then rupert keeps talking about neighborhood watch-the guy wasn't a member of nw.
i think all of us can imagine being in trayvons shoes. zimmerman had no business approaching him or questioning him. it wasn't his place, and the kid was doing nothing wrong. since when is walking down the street a sign of wrongdoing?? and you better believe if i thought some nut was following me i'd try to lose him too. poor trayvon, behaving normally gets him killed because some guy doesn't behave normally.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Danzig

that's right. but then rupert keeps talking about neighborhood watch-the guy wasn't a member of nw.
i think all of us can imagine being in trayvons shoes. zimmerman had no business approaching him or questioning him. it wasn't his place, and the kid was doing nothing wrong. since when is walking down the street a sign of wrongdoing??

It doesn't matter if this Zimmerman was an "official" member of a neighborhood watch or not. You don't gain any special dispensations whatsoever by being a member of a neighborhood watch.

If Zimmerman was indeed an "official" member of a neighborhood watch, and thus "trained" in NW, that makes it far worse: he's carrying a gun and pursuing innocent citizens with deadly force.

And again: watching the videotape, as Zimmerman walks around the garage and into booking (another room with good light), there are multiple views, and there is no head wound or facial wounds on Zimmerman, and zero blood, grass, dirt, dampness either the front or back or sides of his coat and tee shirt he was wearing at the time.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by jms62

Dispatcher told him specifically NOT TO FOLLOW. Anything that happend after that conversation would make him the agressor if I were on the jury.

Fair enough. I can appreciate your point of view. But let me ask you one question. This is just a hypothetical question. If you were on the jury and there was clear evidence that Trayvon and Zimmerman had some words such as the things we have read: Trayvon: "Why are you following me?" Zimmerman: What are you doing here?" Then the conversation was over. Zimmerman walks away and is heading back to his car. Trayvon attacks him from behind and knocks him to the ground.

If you believed that is what happened, how would you vote if you were on the jury? I'm only giving a hypothetical. I'm not saying that this was how the incident went down. I'm just asking you hypothetically if you knew for sure that this was what happened, how would you vote if you were on the jury?

[jms62]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Fair enough. I can appreciate your point of view. But let me ask you one question. This is just a hypothetical question. If you were on the jury and there was clear evidence that Trayvon and Zimmerman had some words such as the things we have read: Trayvon: "Why are you following me?" Zimmerman: What are you doing here?" Then the conversation was over. Zimmerman walks away and is heading back to his car. Trayvon attacks him from behind and knocks him to the ground.

If you believed that is what happened, how would you vote if you were on the jury? I'm only giving a hypothetical. I'm not saying that this was how the incident went down. I'm just asking you hypothetically if you knew for sure that this was what happened, how would you vote if you were on the jury?

I would vote the same because again the fact that he continued after being told not to shows that he was the agressor. Knowing he had a gun and knowing the stand your ground law in my mind he was trying to provoke an altercation.

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by jms62

I would vote the same because again the fact that he continued after being told not to shows that he was the agressor. Knowing he had a gun and knowing the stand your ground law in my mind he was trying to provoke an altercation.

That's really the key point because the "stand your ground" law means exactly that - you don't have to flee an aggressor. But if you become the aggressor, the law no longer applies. In fact, if Mr. Martin was armed, he'd be protected by the stand your ground law if Zimmerman was first to take hostile action.

"Stand your ground" is an improvement over gun control that is too restrictive, but does NOT protect an aggressor. Zimmerman will lose his case if he thinks that the law will protect his actions. The 911 call documents that fact.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by joeydb

That's really the key point because the "stand your ground" law means exactly that - you don't have to flee an aggressor.

Unfortunately for Trayvon, his aggressor carried a Glock 9mm with the safety off and a round in the chamber, and shot him dead.

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by Riot

Unfortunately for Trayvon, his aggressor carried a Glock 9mm with the safety off and a round in the chamber, and shot him dead.

That might very well be how the case is decided once all the evidence is in. And he should be sentenced accordingly if he is guilty.

[Clip-Clop]

Originally Posted by Riot

Unfortunately for Trayvon, his aggressor carried a Glock 9mm with the safety off and a round in the chamber, and shot him dead.

Glocks do not have "safeties", no guns really have safeties other than the holder. Carrying a weapon without a chambered round is as useless as not carrying a weapon at all.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

He probably got out his car and followed on foot because he wanted to be able to tell the police where Trayvon was when they got there.

What the hell? This American citizen wasn't doing anything illegal. Are we no longer allowed to walk in our neighborhoods without Zimmermans' permission? He was walking while black. Period.

I don't give a damn what happened or what was said when Zimmerman decided to intrude upon this boy, or what happened when Trayvon defended himself from an attack by a stranger: Zimmerman killed this boy with deadly force for no reason. "Fear of his life" - in a fist fight? With a one-hundred pound weight advantage?

The police are supposed to protect us from being randomly killed by fellow crazy citizens.

Their investigation stunk. Now others have taken that over. Thank god.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Riot

What the hell? This American citizen wasn't doing anything illegal. Are we no longer allowed to walk in our neighborhoods without Zimmermans' permission? He was walking while black. Period.

I don't give a damn what happened or what was said when Zimmerman decided to intrude upon this boy, or what happened when Trayvon defended himself from an attack by a stranger: Zimmerman killed this boy with deadly force for no reason. "Fear of his life" - in a fist fight? With a one-hundred pound weight advantage?

The police are supposed to protect us from being randomly killed by fellow crazy citizens.

Their investigation stunk. Now others have taken that over. Thank god.

Are you sure Zimmerman didn't have a 200 pound weight advantage? Do you believe everything you read? There is no way in hell that Zimmerman had anything close to a 100 pound weight advantage. I know some media outlets reported that. That is absurd. He's lucky if he weighed 30 pounds more.

It's irrelevant what Zimmerman weighed in his mug shot from 2005. He was much heavier in that picture. He may have weighed well over 200 pounds in that picture but not any more. He is 5"9 inches. You saw him on the video. He is 5"9. How much do you think he weighs? He couldn't weigh more than 180 pounds. The reports on Trayvon are that he was anywhere between 6"0 and 6"3 and anywhere between 140 pounds and 175 pounds. Let's compromise and say he weighed 155 pounds. Does Zimmerman who is 5"9 look like he weighs 255 pounds to you in the video?

With regard to fear for your life or fear of great bodily harm from a fist fight, people get killed or seriously injured in fist fights all the time. Just off the top of my head, I could give you several stories from just the past year:

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500164_162-20077324.html

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lano...ther-girl.html

What about the guy at the Dodger game that ended up in a coma from being beaten up? Thousands of people have been killed or gravely injured in fist fights.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Are you sure Zimmerman didn't have a 200 pound weight advantage? Do you believe everything you read? There is no way in hell that Zimmerman had anything close to a 100 pound weight advantage. I know some media outlets reported that. That is absurd. He's lucky if he weighed 30 pounds more.

I'm going by what the Sanford Police Department and the mortician reported.

Zimmerman had no right to pursue, attack and kill this boy just because he was black.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Riot

I'm going by what the Sanford Police Department and the mortician reported.

Zimmerman had no right to pursue, attack and kill this boy just because he was black.

Do you have any reason to believe that Zimmerman would not have followed Trayvon if Trayvon was Latino? If not, then I don't know why you keep saying that Zimmerman followed him because he was black.

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Riot

I'm going by what the Sanford Police Department and the mortician reported.

Zimmerman had no right to pursue, attack and kill this boy just because he was black.

Here is the police report right here. Trayvon is listed as 6"0 tall and 160 pounds. Zimmerman is listed as 5"9 but it does not tell his weight. I think we can make a pretty good educated guess as to what his weight is from the video. I would guess 175 pounds. What is the most he could possibly weigh? You have seen the video. Could he weigh 210 pounds? I would say there is no way, but even if he does, that would only make him 50 pounds heavier. It just shows you how many completely erroneous reports there are out there. Some in the media have claimed he weighed 100 pounds more.

http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news...e-reports.html

[Riot]

Imagine a lanky white teenager was walking in a strange neighborhood at night. He's a good kid—according to one of his teachers "an A and B student who majored in cheerfulness"—although he's not above making the foolish teenaged mistake of getting caught with an empty baggie with marijuana residue inside it. But he has no criminal record. The worst anyone can say about him is that he smokes some pot, which puts him in the company of nearly half of all American high school students, something more than half of all American adults would legalize. But he's a good student and has no criminal record. In other words, he's a pretty typical teenager. A good kid.

Then one night this typical teenager is walking alone in a strange neighborhood, munching on some junk food and talking on his cell phone. And a black man who steps out of an SUV and starts following him. A black man who outweighs the teen by nearly a hundred pounds. A black man who steps out of an SUV, pulls up a hoodie, and starts following the teen.

The kid tells his friend on the cell phone that someone is following him. He tells her because he doesn't understand why someone is following him. He's nervous. He's just walking along, munching on junk food, and someone has started following him.

Finally, he decides to confront the guy. Even though he is nervous, he probably can't imagine that simply walking in a strange neighborhood would lead to someone shooting him dead. He's standing up for himself, but the thought of violence, the thought of gunfire, doesn't even enter his head. But when he confronts the big guy who had been following him, and asks why he has been following him, the big guy pulls a gun. It happens so suddenly, the teen probably barely has time to realize that something serious is now happening. This was just an innocent evening stroll, a big guy had started following him for no reason, and now his life is being threatened. This was just an innocent evening stroll, and now he's looking at a gun. Pointed at him. By a big guy who had been following him for no reason. A big guy who now shoots him dead.

Three witnesses later report having heard the boy's desperate cry for help. The police report (pdf) says he was found face down, with his hands under him. He was carrying no weapon. He was carrying no drugs. He was carrying the type of junk food typical teenagers carry.

In our reversal of races scenario, the story then is that a lanky white teen was walking in a strange neighborhood, snacking on junk food, talking to a friend on his cell phone, when a large black man stepped out of an SUV, started following him, frightened him, and shot him dead. Imagine the reaction.

Now suppose we find out that the teen's killer had a history of race-based paranoia. Suppose we find out that the teen's killer's neighbors had complained of his aggressive behavior. Suppose we find out that the teen's killer had once been arrested for "resisting arrest with violence and battery on an officer." Suppose we find out that the teen's killer that night had ignored a police dispatcher who had told him to stop following the teen.

What would have been the official response?

Would a police officer have tried to coach a witness to change her story? Would the local state attorney and police chief have overruled even the lead homicide investigator, who recommended that the killer be charged with manslaughter? Would the police have neglected even to give the killer a routine drug and alcohol test? Would the police have neglected to contact whomever the kid was talking to on the phone just moments before he was shot, ignored the witnesses who contradicted the killer's story, and later reported that the killer had been bloodied in a confrontation with the dead teen, even though the real time reports suggested no such thing, and even though the police surveillance video shows the killer had no discernible wounds or discomfort, and even though the funeral director who prepared the dead teen's body for burial says there was no evidence he had been in a fight?

If Trayvon Martin had been white and George Zimmerman black, this would not have become a national story. If they had reported it at all, the media would have praised Martin for trying to stand his ground before a dangerous violent thug.

It defies credulity to think they would be dismissing the killer's behavior, making despicable excuses such as blaming the kid's clothing, or if— unthinkable in this reversing-the-races scenario—there had been no criminal charges filed against the killer, dismissing the story altogether. The questions here don't even need answers. The questions answer themselves.

Had Trayvon Martin been white and George Zimmerman black, Zimmerman would be headed for death row. Media would be hailing Martin as a hero. A martyr who had stood his ground against a dangerous predator. They would be saying that it's too bad Martin hadn't somehow fought back against Zimmerman, and that if he had somehow succeeded in fighting a man so much larger than him, it would have been justifiable if he had left Zimmerman dead.

There is no polite way to explain what has happened. There is no polite way to explain the reflexive defensive rationalizations by some of the media and their fans.

This was a racist killing with a racist cover-up and the right wing's reaction has been virulently and viciously racist. To understand the depth of the right wing's racist depravity, all it takes is to consider the very different reaction to this horror had the races of the victim and his killer been reversed.

Welcome to post-racial America.

..

[Rupert Pupkin]

Originally Posted by Riot

..

I'm not going to tear down that essay piece by piece, which would be easy to do. I will just respond to one thing in there. I would simply ask the author the same question that I asked you. My question to the author would be this: Would Zimmerman have followed Trayvon had Trayvon been Latino? If the answer is no, then my question would be, "How do you know that?"

If your answer is either that you think Zimmerman would have followed Trayvon even if Trayvon had been Latino, or if you you don't know whether Zimmerman would have followed a Latino Trayvon, then how can you say Zimmerman was racist?

What special relationship did Zimmerman (father and son) have with the Sanford PD? I believe this is going to come out if a thorough investigation is actually done.

Consider:

1. Z is on record as having called 911 dozens of times. I'd think the local cops would have him down on their PIA list, unless he's got special access.

2. The dispatcher SPECIFICALLY STATED "WE DON'T WANT YOU TO DO THAT" (follow TM). I'd think they would be a little pissed at him in the station house, but...

3. His "perp walk" arriving at the police station is a joke. Except for the handcuffs, it almost looks like he's taking a joyride. Check the body language real carefully; it almost looks to me like the cops are somewhat apologetic, with an attitude like "sorry for the inconvenience, bud, this shouldn't take long." He's so badly hurt and shook up that he has no trouble getting out of the back seat unassisted, despite the cuffs.

Sorry, not buying his bs.


Ocala Mike

[GPK]

Just curious, but why is Zimmerman even being called white? He is as white as I am black.

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by Rupert Pupkin

Here is the police report right here. Trayvon is listed as 6"0 tall and 160 pounds. Zimmerman is listed as 5"9 but it does not tell his weight. I think we can make a pretty good educated guess as to what his weight is from the video. I would guess 175 pounds. What is the most he could possibly weigh? You have seen the video. Could he weigh 210 pounds? I would say there is no way, but even if he does, that would only make him 50 pounds heavier. It just shows you how many completely erroneous reports there are out there. Some in the media have claimed he weighed 100 pounds more.

http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news...e-reports.html

Umm... so what? This is not a heavyweight bout. There is no expectation of "fair" matchup. The aggressor wanted to cause harm to the victim - whichever way that washes out pending the facts and trial.

Take it to the extremes. If a 300 lb defensive lineman for the NFL was attacked by a 100 lb. soaking wet crazy person, the lineman would still be in his rights to shoot the other guy. He does not have to "accept" physical damage just because he is bigger and stronger. He need not be hurt at all at the other person's whim.