Vote on Debt Limit increase?

[Riot]

Originally Posted by timmgirvan

....and you're the one calling the Reps "fearmongers"?

We have already have had bridges fail and kill people due to infrastructure problems, and many more are still being used that shouldn't be. That is not manufactured lies.

If we eliminate Medicare and Social Security we certainly will go back to our previous reality, of old people dying of preventable problems on the street, homeless. That is not manufacture lies to scare people, either.

It's the truth.

We want a certain lifestyle in America, and it's expensive. We can either agree to pay for it, or give it up.

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by Riot

We have already have had bridges fail and kill people due to infrastructure problems, and many more are still being used that shouldn't be. That is not manufactured lies.

If we eliminate Medicare and Social Security we certainly will go back to our previous reality, of old people dying of preventable problems on the street, homeless. That is not manufacture lies to scare people, either.

It's the truth.

We want a certain lifestyle in America, and it's expensive. We can either agree to pay for it, or give it up.

Those bridges were paid for to be maintained, and instead of doing it right, we had "5 guys watching one guy shovel" for those jobs. Patronage galore, with no incentive to get done sooner - since the jobs were paid a daily rate for as long as it took.

Medicare and Social Security are both Ponzi scheme time bombs. They will not be maintained over the long term because they cannot be. This is academic.

We want a certain lifestyle - but if we cannot afford it or have been using unlimited borrowing to sustain it, we do not have a right to it and it will not continue.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by joeydb

Those bridges were paid for to be maintained, and instead of doing it right, we had "5 guys watching one guy shovel" for those jobs. Patronage galore, with no incentive to get done sooner - since the jobs were paid a daily rate for as long as it took.

Medicare and Social Security are both Ponzi scheme time bombs. They will not be maintained over the long term because they cannot be. This is academic.

We want a certain lifestyle - but if we cannot afford it or have been using unlimited borrowing to sustain it, we do not have a right to it and it will not continue.

But the answer is not simply black and white: to eliminate fixing bridges, or completely eliminate Medicare or Social Security in my view.
Is that the answer in your view?

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by Riot

But the answer is not simply black and white: to eliminate fixing bridges, or completely eliminate Medicare or Social Security in my view.
Is that the answer in your view?

I'm certainly not trying to be black and white - but the decision to spend or not spend, is equally binary in nature. We must get to where the revenue exceeds the expenditures. I think we agree there. But I also agree with many who say that taxes simply cannot go any higher without hurting whatever feeble recovery is going on. Therefore, expenditures must be cut in order to get positive cash flow. Once we have that cash flow, the difference can be thrown against the debt.

The Medicare and Social Security Ponzi schemes are separate in that they should never have been enacted in their current forms in the first place. They also, independent of their systemic unsustainability, do contribute a major drag to our efforts to pay down the debt. If they can be fixed to truly be non-ponzian (not just delaying the inevitable, but making them solvent), fine. Otherwise, we should begin the phase out. We have to.

If the creditors no longer loan to us, the decision has been made for us, and the game is over.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by joeydb

If the creditors no longer loan to us, the decision has been made for us, and the game is over.

You're right, I think we both agree on the result that is needed. I think we differ on the way of getting there.

I don't want "the decision to be made for us" by not raising the debt ceiling. I think the permanent ramifications of that (forever increasing our personal interest rates on homes, cars, federal debt, negative impacting our bond ratings, etc) will take us out of first world status.

I don't want my grandchildren to be paying 2 percentage points more in interest on their house loans because the GOP wouldn't vote to raise the debt ceiling in 2011 (which would be the case even if at that time our government was small and spending well within a budget)

[jms62]

Originally Posted by Riot

You're right, I think we both agree on the result that is needed. I think we differ on the way of getting there.

I don't want "the decision to be made for us" by not raising the debt ceiling. I think the permanent ramifications of that (forever increasing our personal interest rates on homes, cars, federal debt, negative impacting our bond ratings, etc) will take us out of first world status.

I don't want my grandchildren to be paying 2 percentage points more in interest on their house loans because the GOP wouldn't vote to raise the debt ceiling in 2011 (which would be the case even if at that time our government was small and spending well within a budget)

We sure could use the Trillion dollars we have spend in Iraq.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by jms62

We sure could use the Trillion dollars we have spend in Iraq.

Sigh. Yeah.

Or, it would have been nice to simply pay for it at the time, by raising our taxes a little to pay for it.

Also, we sure could use what we spent to fund the Medicare Prescription benefit that was passed into law, rather than not figuring out how to pay for it at the time.

Also, it was probably not a good idea to also, at the time, cut our income by giving a big tax cut to wealthy citizens, while we spent more money on those two things.

Sigh. Gee whiz, how did we get here, in this financial morass?

Wait! I know how to start fixing it! Let's take away our ability to have ready cash flow to pay our bills, and say we will no longer pay our compounding and ever-increasing interest on our debt! That will show our creditors we are serious.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by Riot

We have already have had bridges fail and kill people due to infrastructure problems, and many more are still being used that shouldn't be. That is not manufactured lies.

If we eliminate Medicare and Social Security we certainly will go back to our previous reality, of old people dying of preventable problems on the street, homeless. That is not manufacture lies to scare people, either.

It's the truth.

We want a certain lifestyle in America, and it's expensive. We can either agree to pay for it, or give it up.

Riot, they do want to give it up. They like a 2-class situation. Each day they show this. It's not some misunderstanding. They want this.