The Red Sox Are Finished - Page 2

docicu3 · #21 04-08-2011, 09:27 PM

These are the major players on the 2 WS winning teams and players since 2004. Do I really need to go through the Yankees for a comparison?[/quote]

Well yes.....if for no other reason that I think I would really enjoy the comparable dialogue.....

dalakhani · #22 04-08-2011, 09:32 PM

Calling half of those deals "trades" is laughable. If that is the case, can I call a rod a "trade acquisition"? How about Clemens? Knoblauch?

When a team like the padres "trades" a young stud 1st baseman for minor leaguers and stud subsequently signs 100 trillion dollar contract before he plays an inning, that is in essence a free agent signing. When a team that is about to become history "trades" the best young arm in baseball and said pitcher signs for a trillion dollars, that is in essence a free agent signing.

Yeah, schilling was a "trade". So was Pedro.

We have already debated this. The yanks last world series was pretty sickening but let's not act like Boston's were homegrown. At least the yanks best players during their dynasty years were farm products. Boston can't even say that.

Cannon Shell · #23 04-09-2011, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Calling half of those deals "trades" is laughable. If that is the case, can I call a rod a "trade acquisition"? How about Clemens? Knoblauch?

When a team like the padres "trades" a young stud 1st baseman for minor leaguers and stud subsequently signs 100 trillion dollar contract before he plays an inning, that is in essence a free agent signing. When a team that is about to become history "trades" the best young arm in baseball and said pitcher signs for a trillion dollars, that is in essence a free agent signing.

Yeah, schilling was a "trade". So was Pedro.

We have already debated this. The yanks last world series was pretty sickening but let's not act like Boston's were homegrown. At least the yanks best players during their dynasty years were farm products. Boston can't even say that.

Despite the overwhelmng evidence you refuse to admit you are wrong as usual.
SO the Red Sox forced these teams to deal with them? What above market deal did they do? Who signed for $250 million dollars?
They gave up Carl Pavano who when he was traded was the 9th ranked prospect in the game by Baseball America.
They gave up Hanley Ramirez for Beckett and Lowell.
They gave up 4 highly ranked prospects for Schilling including Astros current closer Brandon Lyon and 1st round pick Fossum. Schilling made 10 million in 03 with AZ, 12 million in 04 with Boston.
Everyone knew that SD wasn't going to resign with AZ. Do you think he wouldn't have found someone to meet his asking price if they had kept him as a FA? That Boston giving up 2 top prospects doesnt count?

That is the difference. Boston has signed good players to realistic contracts and let guys go at the right time and collected draft picks that they have used wisely. The fact they have the ability to trade top prospects to get players back is the difference. The Yankees for the most part just spend. Who is an important player that they have drafted in the 2000's? Besides Cano who is thier young homegrown talent?
And yeah you can call the Clemens deal a trade. They didn't exactly give him away considering David Wells and Lloyd were top players.

My point isnt that Boston doesn't have a high payroll compared to a lot of other teams but they are no where near the Yankees in throwing money at guys.

Cannon Shell · #24 04-09-2011, 08:38 AM

The Yankees have 126 million committed in payroll for 2013! Oh yeah that is for 8 players.

dalakhani · #25 04-09-2011, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Despite the overwhelmng evidence you refuse to admit you are wrong as usual.
SO the Red Sox forced these teams to deal with them? What above market deal did they do? Who signed for $250 million dollars?
They gave up Carl Pavano who when he was traded was the 9th ranked prospect in the game by Baseball America.
They gave up Hanley Ramirez for Beckett and Lowell.
They gave up 4 highly ranked prospects for Schilling including Astros current closer Brandon Lyon and 1st round pick Fossum. Schilling made 10 million in 03 with AZ, 12 million in 04 with Boston.
Everyone knew that SD wasn't going to resign with AZ. Do you think he wouldn't have found someone to meet his asking price if they had kept him as a FA? That Boston giving up 2 top prospects doesnt count?

That is the difference. Boston has signed good players to realistic contracts and let guys go at the right time and collected draft picks that they have used wisely. The fact they have the ability to trade top prospects to get players back is the difference. The Yankees for the most part just spend.
And yeah you can call the Clemens deal a trade. They didn't exactly give him away considering David Wells and Lloyd were top players.

My point isnt that Boston doesn't have a high payroll compared to a lot of other teams but they are no where near the Yankees in throwing money at guys.

LOL Daiseke was realistic? Have you lost your mind? They spent 100 million on a guy that is 30 and isn't going to be their fifth starter much longer. That's realistic?

JD Drew? 14 million a year for a guy that platoons?

Mike Lowell? They didn't want that contract but they took it at 9 million per to watch him rot on the bench for two years. How many teams can afford that? How did that "make sense"?

Julio Lugo?

Did Carl Crawford come over for FREE? How about that Gonzales trade? I bet you there are plenty of teams that can afford those moves. REALLY SHREWD ON THEO's PART. That 300 million is a "thrifty" 300 million.

I did not compare the current Sox to the current Yankees. I compared the respective mini dynasties although I would be hard pressed to call what boston accomplished recently a dynasty. Of course, after going close to 90 years, 2 titles in a decade should be considered a dynasty. If the sox win this year, it was bought pure and simple.

Cannon Shell · #26 04-09-2011, 02:16 PM

So 9 million a year for a guy who hits .324 with 21 Hr and 121 RBI's and finishes 5th in the MVP voting the year you win a world Series is "bad value"?

So JD Drew didn't exactly work out as planned but him for 5 years and 70 million is hardly outrageous. Perhaps a 5 year deal for an injury prone player wasnt a great idea but 14 million a year for a player with his numbers isnt that far out of the realm especially considering he made 11.4 million his last season with the Dodgers. And JD Drew regularly has 550+ plate appearances, he is hardly a platoon player.

You want to judge Dice-K now but at the time the Red Sox were hardly the only ones bidding for him. Supposedly the Angels bid $45 million in a posting fee and would have given him a similar contract.

They did outbid the Angels for Crawford but they gave up 4 star prospects for Gonzalez. Do you think that the Cubs or Dodgers or Orioles weren't going to pay for Him after this seson? Boston beat them to the punch because they have stockpiled a ton of minor league talent and are able to use it just like they did when getting Beckett and Lowell.
They were able to turn a year of Adrian Beltre at 10 million a year (a deal you hated btw) and 2 good prospects for Gonzalez AND a number 1 draft pick. That isnt a good deal? Where did they OVERPAY?

I didn't want to do it because it is tedious but lets compare the Yankees...

Cannon Shell · #27 04-09-2011, 02:41 PM

A Rods contract 10 years 275 million (avg 27.5 million) Not much to say
CC-7 years 161 million (23 million) Completely overbid with 7 yr deal
Teixeria- 8 years 180 million (22.5) completely overbid with 8 year deal
Burnett -5 years 82million (16.5) LOL
Jeters latest 3 years 51 milion (17 million) Think he is worth it now?
Mo 2 years 30 million (15 million) deserves every penny
Posada 4 years 52 million (13 million) produces like a 2 million dollar player now
Soriano- 3 years 35 million (12 million) 12 million for a set up guy?

The Yankees Payrolls since 2004
2010: $213,359,389
2009: $201,449,189
2008: $209,081,577
2007: $189,639,045
2006: $194,663,079
2005: $208,306,817
2004: $184,193,950

The Red Sox Payroll since 2004
(Major League contracts plus pro-rated signing bonuses):
2010: $168,109,833
2009: $121,745,999
2008: $133,390,035
2007: $143,026,214
2006: $120,099,824
2005: $123,505,125
2004: $127,298,500

The Phillies payroll since 2004
2010: $138,178,379
2009: $113,004,046
2008: $ 98,269,880
2007: $ 89,428,213
2006: $ 88,273,333
2005: $ 95,522,000
2004: $ 93,219,167

The Mets payroll since 2004
2010: $126,498,096
2009: $149,373,987
2008: $137,793,376
2007: $115,231,663
2006: $101,084,963
2005: $101,305,821
2004: $ 96,660,970

The White Sox payroll since 2004
2010: $103,080,000
2009: $ 96,068,500
2008: $121,189,332
2007: $108,671,833
2006: $102,750,667
2005: $ 75,178,000
2004: $ 65,212,500

The Cubs payroll since 2004
2010: $144,359,000
2009: $134,809,000
2008: $118,345,833
2007: $ 99,670,332
2006: $ 94,424,499
2005: $ 87,032,933
2004: $ 90,560,00

The Tigers payroll since 2004
2010: $133,995,400
2009: $115,085,145
2008: $137,685,196
2007: $ 95,180,369
2006: $ 82,612,866
2005: $ 69,092,000
2004: $ 46,832,000

Cannon Shell · #28 04-09-2011, 02:53 PM

For a team that "buys" championships Boston sure hsn't signed a bunch of huge deals

The most lucrative contracts in baseball history, by total value:
1. Alex Rodriguez, $275,000,000 (2008-17) YANKEES
2. Alex Rodriguez, $252,000,000 (2001-10) RANGERS
3. Derek Jeter, $189,000,000 (2001-10) YANKEES
4. Joe Mauer, $184,000,000 (2011-18) TWINS
5. Mark Teixeira, $180,000,000 (2009-16) YANKEES
6. CC Sabathia, $161,000,000 (2009-15) YANKEES
7. Manny Ramirez, $160,000,000 (2001-08) RED SOX
8. Troy Tulowitzki, $157,750,000 (2011-20) ROCKIES
9. Miguel Cabrera, $152,300,000 (2008-15) TIGERS
10. Carl Crawford, $142,000,000 (2011-17) REDSOX
11. Todd Helton, $141,500,000 (2003-11) ROCKIES
12. Johan Santana, $137,500,000 (2008-13) METS
13. Alfonso Soriano, $136,000,000 (2007-14) CUBS
14. Vernon Wells, $126,000,000 (2008-14) BLUE JAYS
. . . Barry Zito, $126,000,000 (2007-13) GIANTS
. . . Jayson Werth, $126,000,000 (2011-17) NATS
17. Ryan Howard, $125,000,000 (2012-16) PHILS
18. Mike Hampton, $121,000,000 (2001-08) ROCKIES
19. Jason Giambi, $120,000,000 (2002-08) YANKEES
. . . Matt Holliday, $120,000,000 (2010-16) CARDINALS
. . . Cliff Lee, $120,000,000 (2011-15) RANGERS
22. Carlos Beltran, $119,000,000 (2005-11) METS
23. Ken Griffey Jr., $116,500,000 (2000-08) REDS
24. Kevin Brown, $105,000,000 (1999-2005) DODGERS
25. Carlos Lee, $100,000,000 (2007-12) ASTROS
. . . Albert Pujols, $100,000,000 (2004-10) CARDS
27. Carlos Zambrano, $91,500,000 (2008-12) CUBS
28. Mike Piazza, $91,000,000 (1999-2005) METS
. . . Barry Bonds, $90,000,000 (2002-06) GIANTS
. . . Torii Hunter, $90,000,000 (2008-12) ANGELS
. . . Chipper Jones, $90,000,000 (2001-06) BRAVES
. . . Scott Rolen, $90,000,000 (2003-10) PHILS
. . . Ichiro Suzuki, $90,000,000 (2008-12) MARINERS

There seems to be one team in particular with 4 of the top 6 contracts in history AND they wound up paying one of the other ones anyway.

Like I said Boston isn't cheap but since 2004 they have done more with way less money than the Yankees have. "Buying a championship"? The Marlins bought a title and disbanded the team twice. 2 years ago the Yankees spent close to 700 million to resign ARod then the next year bring in CC, Tex and Burnett. That would qualify.

Cannon Shell · #29 04-09-2011, 02:59 PM

When you look at it like this it is even more apparent...

Average annual value
The highest-paid players in baseball history, by average annual value:
1. Roger Clemens, $28,000,022 (2007) Yankees
2. Alex Rodriguez, $27,500,000 (2008-17) YAnkees
3. Alex Rodriguez, $25,200,000 (2001-10) TEx/Yankees
4. Ryan Howard, $25,000,000 (2012-16) Philly
5. Cliff Lee, $24,000,000 (2011-15) Philly
6. Joe Mauer, $23,000,000 (2011-18) Minn
. . . CC Sabathia, $23,000,000 (2009-15) Yankees
8. Johan Santana, $22,916,667 (2008-13)Mets
9. Manny Ramirez, $22,500,000 (2009-10) Dodgers
. . . Mark Teixeira, $22,500,000 (2009-16)Yankees
11. Roger Clemens, $22,000,022 (2006) Yankees
12. Carl Crawford, $20,285,714 (2011-17) Red Sox
13. Manny Ramirez, $20,000,000 (2001-08) Red Sox
. . . Roy Halladay, $20,000,000 (2011-13) Philly
15. Miguel Cabrera, $19,037,500 (2008-15) Tigers
16. Derek Jeter, $18,900,000 (2001-10) Yankees
17. Carlos Zambrano, $18,300,000 (2008-12) Cubs
18. Andruw Jones, $18,100,000 (2008-09) Dodgers
19. Barry Bonds, $18,000,000 (2002-06) Giants
. . . Roger Clemens, $18,000,000 (2005) Houston
. . . Ryan Howard, $18,000,000 (2009-11) Phily
. . . Torii Hunter, $18,000,000 (2008-12) Angels
. . . Sammy Sosa, $18,000,000 (2002-05)Cubs
. . . Ichiro Suzuki, $18,000,000 (2008-12) Mariners
. . . Vernon Wells, $18,000,000 (2008-14) Blue jays
. . . Jayson Werth, $18,000,000 (2007-14)Nats
. . . Barry Zito, $18,000,000 (2007-13) Giants
28. Jake Peavy, $17,333,333 (2010-12) White sox
29. Jason Giambi, $17,142,857 (2002-08) Yankees
. . . Matt Holliday, $17,142,857 (2010-16) CArds
31. Jeff Bagwell, $17,000,000 (2002-06) Astros
. . . Carlos Beltran, $17,000,000 (2005-11) Mets
. . . Carlos Delgado, $17,000,000 (2001-04) Mets
. . . Alfonso Soriano, $17,000,000 (2007-14 Cubs

dalakhani · #30 04-09-2011, 05:00 PM

Who is comparing anything to the yankees? You are making your own argument there...which is nothing new. The only comparison I drew was between the dynasties and the delusional sox nation.

My point is that the Red Sox spend a lot of money and buy their world series titles. You are trying to disprove this point by...comparing them to the f ucking yankees? LOL That would be like you saying that you are thin and comparing yourself to the butterbean.

Chuck- YOU ARE RIGHT. The Red Sox spend less money than the yankees.

dalakhani · #31 04-09-2011, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

A Rods contract 10 years 275 million (avg 27.5 million) Not much to say
CC-7 years 161 million (23 million) Completely overbid with 7 yr deal
Teixeria- 8 years 180 million (22.5) completely overbid with 8 year deal
Burnett -5 years 82million (16.5) LOL
Jeters latest 3 years 51 milion (17 million) Think he is worth it now?
Mo 2 years 30 million (15 million) deserves every penny
Posada 4 years 52 million (13 million) produces like a 2 million dollar player now
Soriano- 3 years 35 million (12 million) 12 million for a set up guy?

The Yankees Payrolls since 2004
2010: $213,359,389
2009: $201,449,189
2008: $209,081,577
2007: $189,639,045
2006: $194,663,079
2005: $208,306,817
2004: $184,193,950

The Red Sox Payroll since 2004
(Major League contracts plus pro-rated signing bonuses):
2010: $168,109,833
2009: $121,745,999
2008: $133,390,035
2007: $143,026,214
2006: $120,099,824
2005: $123,505,125
2004: $127,298,500

The Phillies payroll since 2004
2010: $138,178,379
2009: $113,004,046
2008: $ 98,269,880
2007: $ 89,428,213
2006: $ 88,273,333
2005: $ 95,522,000
2004: $ 93,219,167

The Mets payroll since 2004
2010: $126,498,096
2009: $149,373,987
2008: $137,793,376
2007: $115,231,663
2006: $101,084,963
2005: $101,305,821
2004: $ 96,660,970

The White Sox payroll since 2004
2010: $103,080,000
2009: $ 96,068,500
2008: $121,189,332
2007: $108,671,833
2006: $102,750,667
2005: $ 75,178,000
2004: $ 65,212,500

The Cubs payroll since 2004
2010: $144,359,000
2009: $134,809,000
2008: $118,345,833
2007: $ 99,670,332
2006: $ 94,424,499
2005: $ 87,032,933
2004: $ 90,560,00

The Tigers payroll since 2004
2010: $133,995,400
2009: $115,085,145
2008: $137,685,196
2007: $ 95,180,369
2006: $ 82,612,866
2005: $ 69,092,000
2004: $ 46,832,000

You have to pay those players. Do you think they wanted to pay Jeter that money or even close? Don't be ignorant to prove a point.

Cannon Shell · #32 04-09-2011, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Who is comparing anything to the yankees? You are making your own argument there...which is nothing new. The only comparison I drew was between the dynasties and the delusional sox nation.

My point is that the Red Sox spend a lot of money and buy their world series titles. You are trying to disprove this point by...comparing them to the f ucking yankees? LOL That would be like you saying that you are thin and comparing yourself to the butterbean.

Chuck- YOU ARE RIGHT. The Red Sox spend less money than the yankees.

Well who exactly says that anybody other than the Yankees "buys" championships? Who should i compare them to? The Mariners?

No I am pointing out that the Red Sox dont spend that much more than many of the other contenders. Saying that everyone "buys" a championship is stupid and ignores good management. Sure the Red Sox can afford a mistake more than a mid market team but the team that won the title in 2004 or 07 was hardly a "bought" team any more than the White Sox were in 05 or the Cardinals in 06 or the Phis in 08 or the Giants last year. The Yankees in 2009? Considering they had 4 of the 6 highest players in history on that team...well you know.

Cannon Shell · #33 04-09-2011, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalakhani

You have to pay those players. Do you think they wanted to pay Jeter that money or even close? Don't be ignorant to prove a point.

What do you mean you have to pay those players? They couldn't have let Posada walk? They HAD to sign Texieria? They NEEDED to pay Burnett 80 million? Someone held a gun to their head to give $12 million to a Soriano to be a 8th inning guy? Jeter is obviously a special case because of his place in the teams history but they consistently simply throw money at guys to cover their mistakes. Hell they tried to sign Lee to a monumental contract and couldnt get it done. Say what you want about Boston but at least they seem to have a plan and make most moves logically. They are just as serious a contender as the Yankees are every year since 04 and are doing it for much less. The Yankees have spent 1.398 billion in payroll since 04, Boston has spent 935 million. Thats $463 million less or 66 million a year less.

dalakhani · #34 04-10-2011, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

What do you mean you have to pay those players? They couldn't have let Posada walk? They HAD to sign Texieria? They NEEDED to pay Burnett 80 million? Someone held a gun to their head to give $12 million to a Soriano to be a 8th inning guy? Jeter is obviously a special case because of his place in the teams history but they consistently simply throw money at guys to cover their mistakes. Hell they tried to sign Lee to a monumental contract and couldnt get it done. Say what you want about Boston but at least they seem to have a plan and make most moves logically. They are just as serious a contender as the Yankees are every year since 04 and are doing it for much less. The Yankees have spent 1.398 billion in payroll since 04, Boston has spent 935 million. Thats $463 million less or 66 million a year less.

The Yankees have had to spend more because of the legacy players from the late nineties and also because of the Arod contract...which Boston would have loved to have inherited! Again, we have had this discussion before. I don't dispute that the Sox have done a better job with payroll. But to a point where they aren't throwing some money around? What do you call Crawford and Gonzales? What do you call Lackey???? Lackey is probably the highest paid number 3 or 4 pitcher in the game. Look at what Boston pays for pitchers 3, 4 and 5. Do I have to dig out the salaries or will you just accept that they are ridiculous numbers in relation to the output especially recently?

I think the Sox are a well run franchise. But they buy their championships. Make no mistake.

dalakhani · #35 04-10-2011, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Well who exactly says that anybody other than the Yankees "buys" championships? Who should i compare them to? The Mariners?

No I am pointing out that the Red Sox dont spend that much more than many of the other contenders. Saying that everyone "buys" a championship is stupid and ignores good management. Sure the Red Sox can afford a mistake more than a mid market team but the team that won the title in 2004 or 07 was hardly a "bought" team any more than the White Sox were in 05 or the Cardinals in 06 or the Phis in 08 or the Giants last year. The Yankees in 2009? Considering they had 4 of the 6 highest players in history on that team...well you know.

Do you really want me to pull out the 2004 roster and how those guys were acquired or will you spare me this lesson in futility? How many homegrown players were on that 2004 squad? Lets not be silly chuckers.

dino · #36 04-10-2011, 08:58 AM

Probably a little too early for this prediction. When your main competition in the division has one starting pitcher (CC) there's always room for a comeback.

Cannon Shell · #37 04-10-2011, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalakhani

Do you really want me to pull out the 2004 roster and how those guys were acquired or will you spare me this lesson in futility? How many homegrown players were on that 2004 squad? Lets not be silly chuckers.

So signing Ortiz for peanuts after he was released, signing Wakefield after he was released for the ML min, buying Millars contract for 3 million, picking up Bellhorn for nothing, getting Varitek as a throw in in a trade, signing Mueller for 2 million a year or less than he was making the previous year, signing Foulke for 3 million, and trading for Pedro and Shilling is "buying" a championship?

Give me a break. They won with 1 big FA signing on the team, Manny. Try to spin the Pedro or Schilling trades all you want but they gave up players for them and didnt pay them more than market value. 3 starting pitchers Lowe, Wakefield and Arroyo won 36 games between them and made less than 9 million combined.

Acting like the 2004 team was "bought" ignores the facts.

The 05 White Sox had 4 players that played significant time Thomas, Crede, Rowand and Beuhrle that were "homegrown". Is anyone saying they "bought" a championship?

The Bid · #38 04-10-2011, 06:48 PM

Post the Indians payroll because they are going to win the world series

declansharbor · #39 04-11-2011, 08:12 PM

The Red Sox look laughably abysmal tonight...Ewwww

docicu3 · #40 04-25-2011, 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by declansharbor

The Red Sox look laughably abysmal tonight...Ewwww

Me thinks they may have righted the ship....when Dice and Lacke pitch like Lester and Becket at their best, they may be scary good if this goes on like the recent road trip......Bring Out Your Dead may be a tad early yet ...