If he wins - will they put him in the Hall of Fame?

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Solis was probably a very hard worker - and certainly seems to have a great personality. He also rode a lot of short prices in cheaper type races. He'd even ride Fairplex a little.




I always viewed Chavez as sort of like an east coast version of Nakatani and Solis.

Chavez:

* leading rider in New York for 6 consecutive years from 1994 through 1999

* Won 12 riding titles at NYRA meets

* Leading rider at Gulfstream in 1989, 1999, 2000 and 2001

* Eclipse award for years outstanding jockey in 1999

* 2001 Kentucky Derby win on Monarchos

Chavez was more the guy that was winning a lot of cheap races with short prices. All of those years he was leading rider in NY he never earned more than $10 million in purses with the exception of his monster year in 1999.

Solis was a $10 million plus guy every year from 1996 to his monster year in 2003.

Chavez is well behind Solis in wins and earnings, but he was pretty solid rider for a long time. If Borel deserves to be in, so does Chavez.

And Solis owes me something for how much I have stuck up for him the past few days.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Chavez was more the guy that was winning a lot of cheap races with short prices.

If you compared ROI's - Chavez routinely destroyed him.

It's real easy to forget now - but there were a lot people who would argue Chavez was as good as Bailey and better than Mike Smith and John Velazquez before the Bobby Frankel and Todd Pletcher machine got going like crazy ... the Frankel business went to Bailey - and Mike Smith was first Pletcher's go to guy until JRV took over that role in the very late 90's or maybe 2000.

That earnings stuff is crap imo. It's even worse than riding titles. Guys like Johnny V. can take everything wide and put up horrid ROI numbers on the turf - and they'll still look like champions because he's on Pletcher's best.

Chavez's most powerful client was like John Ward.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

If you compared ROI's - Chavez routinely destroyed him.

It's real easy to forget now - but there were a lot people who would argue Chavez was as good as Bailey and better than Mike Smith and John Velazquez before the Bobby Frankel and Todd Pletcher machine got going like crazy ... the Frankel business went to Bailey - and Mike Smith was first Pletcher's go to guy until JRV took over that role in the very late 90's or maybe 2000.

That earnings stuff is crap imo. It's even worse than riding titles. Guys like Johnny V. can take everything wide and put up horrid ROI numbers on the turf - and they'll still look like champions because he's on Pletcher's best.

Chavez's most powerful client was like John Ward.

A. I know who rode for who, and you know I do.
B. The earnings stuff is crap because it doesn't help your point, had it favored Chavez, you would have used it.
C. Didn't you use riding titles for 3 of your examples as to Chavez's quality? Which one is it?
D. It's okay to admit you were wrong, we all are every once in awhile.

[justindew]

Most Pointless Debate in DT History

[pointman]

Originally Posted by justindew

Most Pointless Debate in DT History

Nowhere near as pointless as anyone paying you to be some sort of "expert" in this industry.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by justindew

Most Pointless Debate in DT History

Originally Posted by pointman

Nowhere near as pointless as anyone paying you to be some sort of "expert" in this industry.

What?

He gets paid for his bad opinions?

Is this some sort of belated April Fools joke?

[justindew]

Originally Posted by pointman

Nowhere near as pointless as anyone paying you to be some sort of "expert" in this industry.

You are an unbridled moron if you equate being paid as a blogger to being paid as an expert.

I love it when people jump aboard the bandwagon to bash me without having any idea of what my job was.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by justindew

You are an unbridled moron if you equate being paid as a blogger to being paid as an expert.

I love it when people jump aboard the bandwagon to bash me without having any idea of what my job was.

Yeah, I thought you were a blogger.

Whew.

[pointman]

Originally Posted by justindew

You are an unbridled moron if you equate being paid as a blogger to being paid as an expert.

I love it when people jump aboard the bandwagon to bash me without having any idea of what my job was.

The fact that you get paid anything related to this industry is an injustice. Please feel free to continue to tell us what horses you love in a race like you did Sunday so I can toss them. I would ask that you do it before a multi race sequence so I can adjust accordingly.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

A. I know who rode for who, and you know I do.
B. The earnings stuff is crap because it doesn't help your point, had it favored Chavez, you would have used it.
C. Didn't you use riding titles for 3 of your examples as to Chavez's quality? Which one is it?
D. It's okay to admit you were wrong, we all are every once in awhile.

I'm not a Chavez fan at all.

I don't think he or Solis deserve any consideration. That's all.

Not sure what you think I was wrong about. Maybe my opinion that Chavez was WAY better than Solis. If that's what you think I'm wrong about ... I don't care.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

I'm not a Chavez fan at all.

I don't think he or Solis deserve any consideration. That's all.

Not sure what you think I was wrong about. Maybe my opinion that Chavez was WAY better than Solis. If that's what you think I'm wrong about ... I don't care.

You were wrong about Solis. The 5th-12th best rider in a room doesn't win 6 straight meets in a major circuit.

I don't care if any of them get in ever. My only point is, if toothy should get in, then Solis REALLY deserves to.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

You were wrong about Solis. The 5th-12th best rider in a room doesn't win 6 straight meets in a major circuit.

Ok - lets look at the Graded Stakes wins for the six meets consisting of that streak. Keep in mind - Solis won riding titles at all six of them.



'95-'96 Santa Anita winter meet: Graded Stakes wins

Stevens: 10
Antley: 7
Nakatani: 7
McCarron: 7
Delahoussaye: 5
Solis: 3
Desormeaux: 3


'96 Hollywood Park Spring meet: Graded Stakes wins

Nakatani: 7
McCarron: 6
Delahoussaye: 5
Desormeaux: 4
Antley: 2
Flores: 2
Bailey: 1
Solis: 1


'96 Del Mar meet: Graded Stakes wins:

Nakatani: 5
Antley: 3
McCarron: 3
Douglas: 2
Solis: 2
4 tied with 1


'96 Oak Tree meet: Graded Stakes wins:

McCarron: 4
Nakatani: 3
Garcia: 1
Delahoussaye: 1
Fires: 1
Desormeaux: 1
Antley: 1
Stevens: 1
Solis: 0


'96 Hollywood Fall meet: Graded Stakes wins:

Stevens: 3
McCarron: 3
Nakatani: 3
Solis: 2
Delahoussaye: 1
Velazquez: 1
Day: 1


'96-'97 Santa Anita winter meet: Graded Stakes wins:

Nakatani: 11
McCarron: 6
Stevens: 5
Flores: 3
Delahoussaye: 3
Desormeaux: 2
Solis: 2
Garcia: 1
Bailey: 1
Blanc: 1
Silva: 1
Almeida: 1
Black: 1
Douglas: 1



Basically - Solis was making his living in Cal Bred races and claiming races. The kind of races that already rich vets like Stevens, Eddie D, McCarron, and Desormeaux all wanted pretty much no part of.

Over that span - the younger Nakatani won 36 Graded Stakes to just 10 for Solis.

Chris Antley - who I honestly didn't even remember riding in So. Cal in the mid 90's - won more big races.

This begs the question - if Solis was truely one of the four best riders in the room during this time .... how come he wasn't getting it done in the big races?

[Dahoss]

It's that tough to admit, huh?

You want to keep changing the rules until you're somewhat redeemed, as now only winning graded stakes counts. We both know Borel can't compare to Solis in that aspect and I'm sure Chavez can't either.

But I'm interested in seeing a breakdown of Chavez's glory years and how his graded stakes wins compares with the other riders in his colony.

I'm just glad I learned the only races run in Southern California in the 90's were graded stakes, Cal Bred races and claiming races (apparently MSW's and allowance races didn't come along until the 21st century).