If he wins - will they put him in the Hall of Fame?

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

At least Borel has delivered several Hall of Fame worthy rides in big races. Winning an Arkansas Derby on 100/1+ Rockamundo and a Gr 1 in the Foster on the beyond impossible Seek Gold among others - not to mention his incredible record in the Ky Derby.

Alex Solis has made an entire career out of being about the 5th-to-12th best rider in the room on the So. Cal circuit. Unlike Jorge Chavez, he's never won a KY Derby - unlike Jorge Chavez - he's never won an eclipse for outstanding jockey.

How big of a joke is it that Alex Solis almost got in last year ... and Ghostzapper (unarguably the best horse in the last 12 to 15 years - and unquestionably the best horse Frankel ever trained) didn't even make the 'nomination to vote on' cut?

This is pretty solid trolling Shelby, so I'll bite.

Solis has racked up over $220 million in purses by being the 5th-12th best rider in So Cal? I laughed.

Solis missed winning the '97 Derby by a pimple. He's won pretty much every big race here (except for the Derby 'sup Stewart Elliot) and a Dubai World Cup.

So what if Borel only trails him by a hundred million or so in purses for his career, he won the Arkansas Derby on a longshot, so let's vote him in.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Solis has racked up over $220 million in purses by being the 5th-12th best rider in So Cal? I laughed.

Current Hall of Famers - from the So. Cal jockey colony who accomplished more than Alex Solis while riding many years against him:

Kent Desormeaux, Gary Stevens, Eddie Delahousse, Chris McCarron, Pincay Jr. (even as old man he was much better) - Mike Smith (even as a wash up - he's accomplished more than Solis since he's moved out there)

Non Hall of Famers - from the So. Cal room - who are better than Alex Solis:

Pat Valenzula, Garret Gomez, Joel Rosario, Victor Espinoza, Rafeal Bejarano, Corey Nakatani - all unquestionably better.

Hell, Julie Krone was doing better than him when she went out there.


I know it might seem I have a prejudice against Solis for being a below takeout ROI guy for his entire career - he was always massively overrated... but he sure did have a nice personality and kept in great barns.

It's not like I'm a fan of Jorge Chavez - but he was a better jockey than Solis day-to-day. He won the sports biggest event. And he won the biggest honor a rider can get (eclipse award for outstanding jockey that year) - if Solis is deserving - why not Chavez?

If it was up to me ... there would be about five jockeys in the Hall of Fame total.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

If it was up to me ... there would be about five jockeys in the Hall of Fame total.

I won't disagree with that. And I don't even care for Alex Solis, however he has had a better career than Borel, it's not even close, and has always been a better day to day rider than Borel.

What kind of career would Borel have had if he had been riding in So. Cal? I think we can both agree not very good.

But I also think you are underrating Solis. The guy won 6 straight meets in So Cal from Hollywood Spring of '96 to Hollywood Spring on '97. I'm not really sure how the 5th-12th best rider in the room is able to pull something like that off, but he must've had a hell of an agent.

I liked Chavez before he forgot how to ride, so I'd have to look at what his career looks like.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

But I also think you are underrating Solis. The guy won 6 straight meets in So Cal from Hollywood Spring of '96 to Hollywood Spring on '97.

Solis was probably a very hard worker - and certainly seems to have a great personality. He also rode a lot of short prices in cheaper type races. He'd even ride Fairplex a little.

Originally Posted by Dahoss

I liked Chavez before he forgot how to ride, so I'd have to look at what his career looks like.

I always viewed Chavez as sort of like an east coast version of Nakatani and Solis.

Chavez:

* leading rider in New York for 6 consecutive years from 1994 through 1999

* Won 12 riding titles at NYRA meets

* Leading rider at Gulfstream in 1989, 1999, 2000 and 2001

* Eclipse award for years outstanding jockey in 1999

* 2001 Kentucky Derby win on Monarchos

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Solis was probably a very hard worker - and certainly seems to have a great personality. He also rode a lot of short prices in cheaper type races. He'd even ride Fairplex a little.

Solis should be one of those five in the HOF just for the ass whoopin he gave Nakatani.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Solis was probably a very hard worker - and certainly seems to have a great personality. He also rode a lot of short prices in cheaper type races. He'd even ride Fairplex a little.




I always viewed Chavez as sort of like an east coast version of Nakatani and Solis.

Chavez:

* leading rider in New York for 6 consecutive years from 1994 through 1999

* Won 12 riding titles at NYRA meets

* Leading rider at Gulfstream in 1989, 1999, 2000 and 2001

* Eclipse award for years outstanding jockey in 1999

* 2001 Kentucky Derby win on Monarchos

Chavez was more the guy that was winning a lot of cheap races with short prices. All of those years he was leading rider in NY he never earned more than $10 million in purses with the exception of his monster year in 1999.

Solis was a $10 million plus guy every year from 1996 to his monster year in 2003.

Chavez is well behind Solis in wins and earnings, but he was pretty solid rider for a long time. If Borel deserves to be in, so does Chavez.

And Solis owes me something for how much I have stuck up for him the past few days.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

Chavez was more the guy that was winning a lot of cheap races with short prices.

If you compared ROI's - Chavez routinely destroyed him.

It's real easy to forget now - but there were a lot people who would argue Chavez was as good as Bailey and better than Mike Smith and John Velazquez before the Bobby Frankel and Todd Pletcher machine got going like crazy ... the Frankel business went to Bailey - and Mike Smith was first Pletcher's go to guy until JRV took over that role in the very late 90's or maybe 2000.

That earnings stuff is crap imo. It's even worse than riding titles. Guys like Johnny V. can take everything wide and put up horrid ROI numbers on the turf - and they'll still look like champions because he's on Pletcher's best.

Chavez's most powerful client was like John Ward.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

If you compared ROI's - Chavez routinely destroyed him.

It's real easy to forget now - but there were a lot people who would argue Chavez was as good as Bailey and better than Mike Smith and John Velazquez before the Bobby Frankel and Todd Pletcher machine got going like crazy ... the Frankel business went to Bailey - and Mike Smith was first Pletcher's go to guy until JRV took over that role in the very late 90's or maybe 2000.

That earnings stuff is crap imo. It's even worse than riding titles. Guys like Johnny V. can take everything wide and put up horrid ROI numbers on the turf - and they'll still look like champions because he's on Pletcher's best.

Chavez's most powerful client was like John Ward.

A. I know who rode for who, and you know I do.
B. The earnings stuff is crap because it doesn't help your point, had it favored Chavez, you would have used it.
C. Didn't you use riding titles for 3 of your examples as to Chavez's quality? Which one is it?
D. It's okay to admit you were wrong, we all are every once in awhile.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

This is pretty solid trolling Shelby, so I'll bite.

Solis has racked up over $220 million in purses by being the 5th-12th best rider in So Cal? I laughed.

Solis missed winning the '97 Derby by a pimple. He's won pretty much every big race here (except for the Derby 'sup Stewart Elliot) and a Dubai World Cup.

So what if Borel only trails him by a hundred million or so in purses for his career, he won the Arkansas Derby on a longshot, so let's vote him in.

In all fairness to Dougie, his entire post was ridiculous, not just what you pointed out.

[The Indomitable DrugS]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

In all fairness to Dougie, his entire post was ridiculous, not just what you pointed out.

Yes - because you think Ghostzapper was a bum - I know.

You really think he's less deserving of a vote than Alex Solis, Borel, Gomez (a one-time junkie who I always defended as a good rider when he was failing to break the top 10 in So. Cal year in and year out)

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Yes - because you think Ghostzapper was a bum - I know.

You really think he's less deserving of a vote than Alex Solis, Borel, Gomez (a one-time junkie who I always defended as a good rider when he was failing to break the top 10 in So. Cal year in and year out)

I never said he was a bum. But cmon man, best horse of the last 15 years?

Unarguably?

Solis was better than some of those jocks you listed as better than him too.

I will agree though that there should be very few of them in the HOF.