Handle Decline Continues...

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Split Rock

What's laughable is someone taking offense to this. Are you kidding me?

You mentioned the other sports where cheating occurs....baseball (cleaned it up and is prosecuting those that took steriods and humiliating those "great" players like Clemens and McGuire by not allowing them in the Hall of Fame. That is how a real industry handles those that taint the sport). Football, hockey have done similar. Cycling?!?? Are you joking? The drug issue in that sport is destroying it. They can't get a good handle on it and it is killing the sport. Olympics....very similar to cycling.

I understand that cheating has been in the sport forever. But cheating today is completely different and much, much, much more rampant.

There's really no point in you and I debating it. I believe the horse players should try and stand up to this in whatever way they can. You believe horse players should excuse it so you can keep playing the game. The current drug situation in the sport came on the scene in the mid to late 1990's. Same time as baseball and all the other sports.

You are simply speculating and have no real clue of what you are talking about. The idea that there is more "cheating" now than 30 years ago is laughable. The difference is that there is a whole lot more info available. 30 years ago you would have never heard of guys you have named in this thread because there was no simulcasting and for the most part people followed one circuit and no one paid any attention to anyones win percentage. Stop trying to pass off your opinion as fact especially when your entire defense is baseball players or cyclists.

[Split Rock]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

You are simply speculating and have no real clue of what you are talking about. The idea that there is more "cheating" now than 30 years ago is laughable. The difference is that there is a whole lot more info available. 30 years ago you would have never heard of guys you have named in this thread because there was no simulcasting and for the most part people followed one circuit and no one paid any attention to anyones win percentage. Stop trying to pass off your opinion as fact especially when your entire defense is baseball players or cyclists.

I speak english

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

30 years ago you would have never heard of guys you have named in this thread because there was no simulcasting and for the most part people followed one circuit and no one paid any attention to anyones win percentage.

The fundamental premise of the thread - that cheating is "rampant" at all tracks - is something that I do not agree with, as I believe the vast majority of trainers are plying their trades within the rules. Will there always be someone trying to utilize illicit means to make money? Yes, but the point that you made above is something that racing needs to come to grips with.

In the 1980s, before the simulcasting explosion, when racing was really a really a regional exercise, a NY horseplayer had to deal with Oscar Barrera, and likely had no idea who his counterparts in places like California or Philadelpia were. Now, because of full-card simulcasting and racing really becoming a national sport, they are aware of guys like Mullins and Guerrero, and the perception is that guys like that exist in almost every racing jurisdiction. Even if the "cheating" is not "rampant" at all tracks, the existence of guys like those mentioned at almost every venue lead some to conclude that the problem is universal.

That said, pointman makes an excellent point about the demise of NYC OTB and its impact on national handle. Also, I'd love to know the comparative numbers about handle through off-shore accounts that never hits the pools. My sense is that handle continues to bleed out of the pools in this manner.

[randallscott35]

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

The fundamental premise of the thread - that cheating is "rampant" at all tracks - is something that I do not agree with, as I believe the vast majority of trainers are plying their trades within the rules. Will there always be someone trying to utilize illicit means to make money? Yes, but the point that you made above is something that racing needs to come to grips with.

In the 1980s, before the simulcasting explosion, when racing was really a really a regional exercise, a NY horseplayer had to deal with Oscar Barrera, and likely had no idea who his counterparts in places like California or Philadelpia were. Now, because of full-card simulcasting and racing really becoming a national sport, they are aware of guys like Mullins and Guerrero, and the perception is that guys like that exist in almost every racing jurisdiction. Even if the "cheating" is not "rampant" at all tracks, the existence of guys like those mentioned at almost every venue lead some to conclude that the problem is universal.

That said, pointman makes an excellent point about the demise of NYC OTB and its impact on national handle. Also, I'd love to know the comparative numbers about handle through off-shore accounts that never hits the pools. My sense is that handle continues to bleed out of the pools in this manner.

That's not the premise I went with as the person who started the thread. Meds are not keeping people from betting. Money is. And poor return on the investment is.

[Travis Stone]

Originally Posted by randallscott35

That's not the premise I went with as the person who started the thread. Meds are keeping people from betting. Money is. And poor return on the investment is.

The challenges facing horse racing go well beyond one singular topic.

The problem is when people write blog posts and solicit ideas, you get 40 variations on a theme with different ideas, mindsets or thoughts that they think would save racing.

I think meds and takeout are two bullet points in a long list of bullet points that goes from the distribution of horse flesh wealth to how hard the game is learn for someone interested in jumping in - and everything in between.