Wait On That Abortion

[jms62]

Originally Posted by joeydb

Outlawing anything does not stop it. What's your point? That without perfect enforcement no law is worth having?

Gun control, for instance, penalizes legal gun owners, makes them defenseless, yet the criminal who buys his guns illegally is unaffected.

We still have drunk drivers despite repeated attempts to lower blood alcohol limits, adding sobriety checkpoints, and presumed guilt if a breathalyzer is refused.

We still have rampant prostitution even though it is illegal everywhere but in a couple places in Nevada.

And you speak of unwanted pregnancy as if it's as inevitable as the law of gravity, yet you credit those having an abortion as having weighed some huge "choice".

So people are too weak or unthinking to avoid getting unwillingly pregnant, yet these same people are so brilliant as to make a perfectly informed decision regarding if or when to kill their offspring?

No one is killing any offspring becuase they are not offspring until they are born.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by jms62

No one is killing any offspring becuase they are not offspring until they are born.

That is the entire issue is it not? Those who believe life begins at conception can never accept legalized abortion while those who see life beginning at birth must in good faith support a woman's right to choose. That is the basis for the debate and until/unless science can provide a absolute answer, the debate will continue.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

That is the entire issue is it not? Those who believe life begins at conception can never accept legalized abortion while those who see life beginning at birth must in good faith support a woman's right to choose. That is the basis for the debate and until/unless science can provide a absolute answer, the debate will continue.

What is omitted from this debate is when, during the pregnancy, abortions are legally permitted to be performed.

Watched another vet "pinch a twin" this morning in a pregnant TB mare. I did not tell him he was "murdering" a horse.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Riot

What is omitted from this debate is when, during the pregnancy, abortions are legally permitted to be performed.

Watched another vet "pinch a twin" this morning in a pregnant TB mare. I did not tell him he was "murdering" a horse.

Yet if you believe life begins at conception you would see that as murder!

[Riot]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Yet if you believe life begins at conception you would see that as murder!

I believe life is a continuum, as sperm and ova are alive, and no, I do NOT see that as murder. Neither do I see 1-2 month human abortions as murder, and I have seen several aborted (spontaneously) 2-month-old fetuses in my life.

The conceptus is an aggregation of rather undifferentiated cells, not yet developed, not yet capable of going forward in development independent of the mother's body.

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by Riot

I believe life is a continuum, as sperm and ova are alive, and no, I do NOT see that as murder. Neither do I see 1-2 month human abortions as murder, and I have seen several aborted (spontaneously) 2-month-old fetuses in my life.

The conceptus is an aggregation of rather undifferentiated cells, not yet developed, not yet capable of going forward in development independent of the mother's body.

Interesting point: why do people feel a sense of loss when there is a spontaneous miscarriage? Isn't it because they feel a death has occurred?

And what is done to prevent those undifferentiated cells from developing? You know, the cells whose DNA doesn't match the woman's? Killing them.

[Riot]

Originally Posted by joeydb

Interesting point: why do people feel a sense of loss when there is a spontaneous miscarriage? Isn't it because they feel a death has occurred?

Having never had a miscarriage, I cannot speak for what other people feel. I'm sure that people that want a baby are unhappy to lose the pregnancy at such an early stage of development, (as they are unhappy about not being able to get pregnant) but nature aborts plenty of pregnancies for it's own reasons.

And what is done to prevent those undifferentiated cells from developing? You know, the cells whose DNA doesn't match the woman's? Killing them.

What is that supposed to mean? I don't understand what you are trying to say.

(and btw, read up on maternal mitochondrial DNA before you commit ever more to your argument regarding cells that are not "her" DNA)

You have shifted the conversation away from the subject, to talking about developing feti.

The conversation, however, is constitutional and legal: it is about your desire to control the lives of people you don't even know, and your desire to have the government of the United States force women to have babies. That is not legal in this country.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Riot

I believe life is a continuum, as sperm and ova are alive, and no, I do NOT see that as murder. Neither do I see 1-2 month human abortions as murder, and I have seen several aborted (spontaneously) 2-month-old fetuses in my life.

The conceptus is an aggregation of rather undifferentiated cells, not yet developed, not yet capable of going forward in development independent of the mother's body.

That is your belief, unfortunately it is not scientific proof. One thing is for sure the process which begins at conception will evolve eventually into a birth if not interrupted. We lack the knowledge necessary to say at what point in that process life begins.

[Mike]

Here's a link to the Nebraska bill giving the thumbs up to abortion causers murder:
http://www.nebraskalegislature.gov/F...ntro/LB232.pdf

[Riot]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

That is your belief, unfortunately it is not scientific proof. One thing is for sure the process which begins at conception will evolve eventually into a birth if not interrupted. We lack the knowledge necessary to say at what point in that process life begins.

The potential for a new "life" obviously begins at conception (although I think that is a moot point, as the egg is alive, the sperm is alive, the live sperm fertilizes the live egg which simply begins the process that leads to cell division and differentiation) The single-celled fertilized zygote is never dead and inert (and neither can dead eggs be successfully fertilized) - although differentiation can certainly be readily arrested.

IMO a bunch of cells with the beginnings of primitive neural tube formation is not "a baby", and it's death is certainly not "murder". A fetus doesn't even have all major organs necessary for life until about 2 months of gestation.

The question, for me, is when can that life be sustained independently (with medical support) from the mother's body.

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

That is the entire issue is it not? Those who believe life begins at conception can never accept legalized abortion while those who see life beginning at birth must in good faith support a woman's right to choose. That is the basis for the debate and until/unless science can provide a absolute answer, the debate will continue.

Quite correct.

[joeydb]

Originally Posted by jms62

No one is killing any offspring becuase they are not offspring until they are born.

A Latin word for offspring is "fetus".