Divisional best by decade since 1900

[King Glorious]

I've always had a huge problem with Mineshaft getting as much credit as he does and being named HOY in 2003. While he certainly was a good horse, they were extremely fortunate that year with him. While you don't ever want to criticize anyone for chosing a schedule that includes the Pimlico Special, Foster, Suburban, Woodward, and JCGC because those are the races you are supposed to run in with a horse of that caliber, I think that you have to look deeper than the names of the races that year. It's not his/their fault that none of the other top older males showed up to face him in those races. Most of the supporters of Mineshaft say that they were ducking him. I don't think that was the case at all. Either way, there remains the simple fact that 2003 was a pretty good year for the older male division. That season, we had Candy Ride, Medaglia d'Oro, Pleasantly Perfect, Congaree, Perfect Drift, Mineshaft, and Milwaukee Brew. While most of those horses were locking horns with each other several times during the year, taking turns knocking each other off and tarnishing each other's records, Mineshaft got away virtually unscathed. I think that those seven I named above were the general consensus seven top older males that year and Mineshaft only had to face ONE of them (Perfect Drift) and he only faced that one horse ONE time (in the Foster) and he LOST that one matchup. I feel like in a lot of ways, that situation is not unlike 2010 with Zenyatta. While Blame was taking on the best of the older horses all year (Battle Plan, Haynesfield, and Quality Road), Zenyatta was facing second and third rate horses all year and beating them and then in her one matchup with a top horse, she lost. If you wonder where this current trend of connections playing duck soup really took off, where less became more, I think 2003 is a good place to start.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

If you wonder where this current trend of connections playing duck soup really took off, where less became more, I think 2003 is a good place to start.

This is preposterous.

Mineshaft- 9 starts.
Congaree- 9 starts.
Medaglia D'Oro- 5 starts.
Pleasantly Perfect- 4 starts.
Milwaukee Brew- 4 starts.
Candy Ride- 3 starts.

Congaree was dusted in the Met Mile and beaten on the square in both the Kentucky Cup and the Breeder's Cup.

Pleasantly Perfect and Milwaukee Brew were opportunists at best.

Perfect Drift wasted starts on turf and was no factor in the BC.

Medaglia D'Oro beat the exact same horses Mineshaft did (ie Olmodovar, Evening Attire, Volponi, etc.), but lost both his starts at 10f including the BC Classic.

Candy Ride won a single main track race in a 3-horse field which included a horse that was retired 24 hours later with an injury, and he himself was never heard from again.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

This is preposterous.

Mineshaft- 9 starts.
Congaree- 9 starts.
Medaglia D'Oro- 5 starts.
Pleasantly Perfect- 4 starts.
Milwaukee Brew- 4 starts.
Candy Ride- 3 starts.

Congaree was dusted in the Met Mile and beaten on the square in both the Kentucky Cup and the Breeder's Cup.

Pleasantly Perfect and Milwaukee Brew were opportunists at best.

Perfect Drift wasted starts on turf and was no factor in the BC.

Medaglia D'Oro beat the exact same horses Mineshaft did (ie Olmodovar, Evening Attire, Volponi, etc.), but lost both his starts at 10f including the BC Classic.

Candy Ride won a single main track race in a 3-horse field which included a horse that was retired 24 hours later with an injury, and he himself was never heard from again.

By less, I wasn't referring at all to number of starts. I was talking about taking the paths of least resistence. I wouldn't care if a horse ran twice. If they took on the toughest competition out there, I'd value that more than one that starts 10 times and doesn't face anything other than allowance competition. You mention that Medaglia lost both of his starts at 10f. While that's true, just saying that doesn't even begin to tell the story. In the Pacific Classic, if I'm not mistaken, he also broke the track record while losing. In the BC, he ran his eyeballs out while losing to a pretty good 10f horse while dueling throughout the race with another one in Congaree. This whole thing about him and 10f is pretty stupid. It wasn't the distance that found him out in either of those races. If that were the case, he wouldn't have won the Travers and lost the Belmont by just a 1/2 length, I don't care who he was facing in those races. Personally, I think too much is made of wins and losses and the actual performance is lost. A horse like Rachel Alexandra is made into some kind of superhero for dueling with Big Drama and holding off Mine that Bird or for dueling in the Woodward and holding off Macho Again yet MDO is downgraded because he couldn't hold off Pleasantly Perfect after dueling with Congaree and Winning Colors is downgraded because she couldn't hold off Risen Star after dueling with Forty Niner (and running him into submission) in the Preakness.

You talk about how Congaree and MDO and Perfect Drift were beaten in the Classic but you miss the point I was making in the first place. That they were all there to face each other meant that all of them except for one would have to lose. Congaree faced Perfect Drift in Kentucky. They both couldn't win. MDO and Candy Ride both couldn't win the Pacific Classic. Congaree, Milwaukee Brew, and Pleasantly Perfect were all in the San Antonio. This is what I'm talking about. Their records were all going to suffer because they were consistently facing each other while Mineshaft was getting a steady diet of lower level horses.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

By less, I wasn't referring at all to number of starts. I was talking about taking the paths of least resistence. I wouldn't care if a horse ran twice. If they took on the toughest competition out there, I'd value that more than one that starts 10 times and doesn't face anything other than allowance competition. You mention that Medaglia lost both of his starts at 10f. While that's true, just saying that doesn't even begin to tell the story. In the Pacific Classic, if I'm not mistaken, he also broke the track record while losing. In the BC, he ran his eyeballs out while losing to a pretty good 10f horse while dueling throughout the race with another one in Congaree. This whole thing about him and 10f is pretty stupid. It wasn't the distance that found him out in either of those races. If that were the case, he wouldn't have won the Travers and lost the Belmont by just a 1/2 length, I don't care who he was facing in those races. Personally, I think too much is made of wins and losses and the actual performance is lost. A horse like Rachel Alexandra is made into some kind of superhero for dueling with Big Drama and holding off Mine that Bird or for dueling in the Woodward and holding off Macho Again yet MDO is downgraded because he couldn't hold off Pleasantly Perfect after dueling with Congaree and Winning Colors is downgraded because she couldn't hold off Risen Star after dueling with Forty Niner (and running him into submission) in the Preakness.

I didn't say Medaglia D'Oro couldn't stay 10f. All I said was that he lost both his starts that year at 10f in 2003. I presume some Eclipse voters might have scored Mineshaft a little higher since he won 3 races at a classic distance in 2003, whereas MDO had none.

You talk about how Congaree and MDO and Perfect Drift were beaten in the Classic but you miss the point I was making in the first place. That they were all there to face each other meant that all of them except for one would have to lose. Congaree faced Perfect Drift in Kentucky. They both couldn't win. MDO and Candy Ride both couldn't win the Pacific Classic. Congaree, Milwaukee Brew, and Pleasantly Perfect were all in the San Antonio. This is what I'm talking about. Their records were all going to suffer because they were consistently facing each other while Mineshaft was getting a steady diet of lower level horses.

Consistently facing each other? Congaree and Pleasantly Perfect faced each other 3 times. Congaree and Milwaukee Brew faced each other twice. Congaree faced Perfect Drift twice. See a pattern developing? Only Congaree took on all comers (he even when toe-to-toe with the year's best sprinter, too).

Pleasantly Perfect made all of 4 starts, all at Santa Anita. His record "suffered" because he didn't run between March and October and he couldn't get close to Congaree without a tailor-made setup.

Instead of trying to pad your argument with nonsense, just say what your main gripe is...that Mineshaft didn't run in the BC Classic. Who cares? The race was won by the worst of your top 7 older horses that year when the beneficiary of one of the greatest setups of all time. Mineshaft had the more illustrious campaign of the bunch. The only other horse that didn't have a cherry-picked season was Congaree, but he had too many high-profile losses (Big Cap, Met Mile, etc.) to overtake Mineshaft.

I find your argument pretty ironic coming from a guy who thinks Java Gold should have been HOY in 1987.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

I didn't say Medaglia D'Oro couldn't stay 10f. All I said was that he lost both his starts that year at 10f in 2003. I presume some Eclipse voters might have scored Mineshaft a little higher since he won 3 races at a classic distance in 2003, whereas MDO had none.



Consistently facing each other? Congaree and Pleasantly Perfect faced each other 3 times. Congaree and Milwaukee Brew faced each other twice. Congaree faced Perfect Drift twice. See a pattern developing? Only Congaree took on all comers (he even when toe-to-toe with the year's best sprinter, too).

Pleasantly Perfect made all of 4 starts, all at Santa Anita. His record "suffered" because he didn't run between March and October and he couldn't get close to Congaree without a tailor-made setup.

Instead of trying to pad your argument with nonsense, just say what your main gripe is...that Mineshaft didn't run in the BC Classic. Who cares? The race was won by the worst of your top 7 older horses that year when the beneficiary of one of the greatest setups of all time. Mineshaft had the more illustrious campaign of the bunch. The only other horse that didn't have a cherry-picked season was Congaree, but he had too many high-profile losses (Big Cap, Met Mile, etc.) to overtake Mineshaft.

I find your argument pretty ironic coming from a guy who thinks Java Gold should have been HOY in 1987.

You're getting worse. Not including every matchup:
Perfect Drift faced Congaree in at Turfway and Mineshaft in the Foster
Congaree faced everyone all year
Medaglia faced Candy Ride at Del Mar and ran in the BC
Pleasantly Perfect faced Congaree and Milwaukee Brew in February and was in the Classic.

Of those seven, all of them faced more than one other member of the group and most of them did so multiple times. The only one that didn't was Mineshaft. This is a fact that you can't argue.

I couldn't care less if Mineshaft had run in the Classic or not. Quite often, the horse I've thought should have been HOY didn't run in the Classic. Still doesn't change the fact that while the others were facing each other, some of them several times, Mineshaft got away without having to be challenged by any of them and the one time he was, he lost. Debate it how you want to but that's the truth. If he had to face Congaree a couple of times or Medaglia or Candy Ride, I doubt he comes out with the same kind of record he had.

And yeah, the Java Gold argument is the same. He only beat Alysheba, Bet Twice, Gulch, Nostalgia's Star, Cryptoclearance, Polish Navy, Broad Brush, Temperate Sil, Cutlass Reality, etc. Save for Ferdinand and Lost Code, he beat just about every other top class dirt horse out there.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Perfect Drift faced Congaree in at Turfway and Mineshaft in the Foster
Congaree faced everyone all year
Medaglia faced Candy Ride at Del Mar and ran in the BC
Pleasantly Perfect faced Congaree and Milwaukee Brew in February and was in the Classic.

Yeah, I mentioned all that already. These one-off matchups amongst a group of 6 horses is hardly "consistently facing each other" or "several times" as you have commented. The only two that faced each other more than twice was Congaree and Pleasantly Perfect.

Why is a single horse's record (Mineshaft) being pitted against 6 other horses collectively? Consider those 6 horses individually, and none can overcome the accomplishments of Mineshaft.

I couldn't care less if Mineshaft had run in the Classic or not. Quite often, the horse I've thought should have been HOY didn't run in the Classic. Still doesn't change the fact that while the others were facing each other, some of them several times, Mineshaft got away without having to be challenged by any of them and the one time he was, he lost.

He wintered at Fair Grounds, made a couple of starts in KY, and was based in NY the rest of the year. I guess the Kentucky Cup Classic, Hawthorne Gold Cup, Washington Park Handicap (all grade 2s) would have made more sense.

Don't bother bringing up forays to Del Mar. Nobody had Candy Ride at the top of their list of top handicap horses (how could they?--no one knew who he was). Guess why Frankel showed up there instead of the Woodward?

Debate it how you want to but that's the truth. If he had to face Congaree a couple of times or Medaglia or Candy Ride, I doubt he comes out with the same kind of record he had.

Yeah, it's too bad Frankel was watching Medaglia D'Oro's weight throughout the year, Congaree would only race around one-turn in NY, Candy Ride only appeared from June to August, and Pleasantly Perfect was waiting for those still in training to burn out come late October.

He did get revenge on Balto Star in the Pimlico Special at least.

And yeah, the Java Gold argument is the same. He only beat Alysheba, Bet Twice, Gulch, Nostalgia's Star, Cryptoclearance, Polish Navy, Broad Brush, Temperate Sil, Cutlass Reality, etc. Save for Ferdinand and Lost Code, he beat just about every other top class dirt horse out there.

Nostalgia's Star? I laughed.

How'd he do in the Triple Crown?

[King Glorious]

Soon as I finish looking up Hold that Tiger's record. Might as well look up Quest's record too and Western Pride and Judge's Case. Those monsters that Mineshaft had to face while the real top horses were facing each other.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

This is preposterous.

Mineshaft- 9 starts.
Congaree- 9 starts.
Medaglia D'Oro- 5 starts.
Pleasantly Perfect- 4 starts.
Milwaukee Brew- 4 starts.
Candy Ride- 3 starts.

Congaree was dusted in the Met Mile and beaten on the square in both the Kentucky Cup and the Breeder's Cup.

Pleasantly Perfect and Milwaukee Brew were opportunists at best.

Perfect Drift wasted starts on turf and was no factor in the BC.

Medaglia D'Oro beat the exact same horses Mineshaft did (ie Olmodovar, Evening Attire, Volponi, etc.), but lost both his starts at 10f including the BC Classic.

Candy Ride won a single main track race in a 3-horse field which included a horse that was retired 24 hours later with an injury, and he himself was never heard from again.

Maybe the way he is saying it is wrong, using words like ducking but the facts behind the argument are strong. Mineshaft beat no one at all. He lost to Perfect Drift who at some point turned into a giant hanger. The money he cost me when he hung in the Whitney, OMG. No facts to back this up just my opinion, but Im fairly certain Candy Ride would have beat Mineshaft, at any distance. I wont comment about anyone else on the list.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985

Maybe the way he is saying it is wrong, using words like ducking but the facts behind the argument are strong. Mineshaft beat no one at all. He lost to Perfect Drift who at some point turned into a giant hanger. The money he cost me when he hung in the Whitney, OMG. No facts to back this up just my opinion, but Im fairly certain Candy Ride would have beat Mineshaft, at any distance. I wont comment about anyone else on the list.

What I actually said is that when you run in the races that Mineshaft did, nobody can accuse you of ducking. I don't think anyone ducked him either. It was just a case were there were plenty of opportunities around and for whatever reasons, Mineshaft was fortunate that things worked out for him where he didn't have to face other top horses. The fact is that even if one were to think he was the best of all horses that year, he won ZERO races against top competition.

[dalakhani]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I've always had a huge problem with Mineshaft getting as much credit as he does and being named HOY in 2003. While he certainly was a good horse, they were extremely fortunate that year with him. While you don't ever want to criticize anyone for chosing a schedule that includes the Pimlico Special, Foster, Suburban, Woodward, and JCGC because those are the races you are supposed to run in with a horse of that caliber, I think that you have to look deeper than the names of the races that year. It's not his/their fault that none of the other top older males showed up to face him in those races. Most of the supporters of Mineshaft say that they were ducking him. I don't think that was the case at all. Either way, there remains the simple fact that 2003 was a pretty good year for the older male division. That season, we had Candy Ride, Medaglia d'Oro, Pleasantly Perfect, Congaree, Perfect Drift, Mineshaft, and Milwaukee Brew. While most of those horses were locking horns with each other several times during the year, taking turns knocking each other off and tarnishing each other's records, Mineshaft got away virtually unscathed. I think that those seven I named above were the general consensus seven top older males that year and Mineshaft only had to face ONE of them (Perfect Drift) and he only faced that one horse ONE time (in the Foster) and he LOST that one matchup. I feel like in a lot of ways, that situation is not unlike 2010 with Zenyatta. While Blame was taking on the best of the older horses all year (Battle Plan, Haynesfield, and Quality Road), Zenyatta was facing second and third rate horses all year and beating them and then in her one matchup with a top horse, she lost. If you wonder where this current trend of connections playing duck soup really took off, where less became more, I think 2003 is a good place to start.

Well put KG. Lest we forget that Mineshaft lost to Balto Star that year as well but in fairness that was before they gave him Lasix.

Frankel shipped MDO west after the Whitney that year and Milwaukee Brew was already out there. He chose to run them both in the Pacific Classic and i have read where people have argued that he was ducking Mineshaft. I have to disagree with that though considering that the BC was out west that year and there were a few more advantages to running at del Mar as opposed to running in the woodard or JCGC.

It could be argued that Baffert ducked by sending Congaree to turfway but that doesnt hold water because Perfect Drift was there and that horse had already beaten mineshaft.

The good three year olds coming up were either off form (funny cide), retiring (empire maker), or more suited to shorter distance (peace rules). Ten most wanted was too slow and he was a west coast horse anyway. There was Dynever but that horse could find a way to lose the cleveland cavs.

Mineshaft came along in the right year (or the wrong year depending on how one sees things). Surely he was a nice horse but unfortunately he never proved it beating any other nice horses.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

I've always had a huge problem with Mineshaft getting as much credit as he does and being named HOY in 2003. While he certainly was a good horse, they were extremely fortunate that year with him. While you don't ever want to criticize anyone for chosing a schedule that includes the Pimlico Special, Foster, Suburban, Woodward, and JCGC because those are the races you are supposed to run in with a horse of that caliber, I think that you have to look deeper than the names of the races that year. It's not his/their fault that none of the other top older males showed up to face him in those races. Most of the supporters of Mineshaft say that they were ducking him. I don't think that was the case at all. Either way, there remains the simple fact that 2003 was a pretty good year for the older male division. That season, we had Candy Ride, Medaglia d'Oro, Pleasantly Perfect, Congaree, Perfect Drift, Mineshaft, and Milwaukee Brew. While most of those horses were locking horns with each other several times during the year, taking turns knocking each other off and tarnishing each other's records, Mineshaft got away virtually unscathed. I think that those seven I named above were the general consensus seven top older males that year and Mineshaft only had to face ONE of them (Perfect Drift) and he only faced that one horse ONE time (in the Foster) and he LOST that one matchup. I feel like in a lot of ways, that situation is not unlike 2010 with Zenyatta. While Blame was taking on the best of the older horses all year (Battle Plan, Haynesfield, and Quality Road), Zenyatta was facing second and third rate horses all year and beating them and then in her one matchup with a top horse, she lost. If you wonder where this current trend of connections playing duck soup really took off, where less became more, I think 2003 is a good place to start.

Dude, ever heard of a 'paragraph' and it's proper usage?

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Dude, ever heard of a 'paragraph' and it's proper usage?

Yes, cause this is the most gramatically offensive of all posts on here. Sorry.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Yes, cause this is the most gramatically offensive of all posts on here. Sorry.

I was not poking fun at your grammar.

I was commenting on how difficult it is to read a big block of text that isn't broken up with proper line spacing.

[King Glorious]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

I was not poking fun at your grammar.

I was commenting on how difficult it is to read a big block of text that isn't broken up with proper line spacing.

Again, I apologize.

As I said earlier, I find no fault in the schedule Mineshaft had. It was the type of schedule a HOY is supposed to have and they couldn't control who came to face them. They certainly didn't duck anyone and I agree, there was no other horse that put up a strong enough record to make anyone say "that horse should be HOY" over him. Each of the others had their flaws. My point was more about how I feel that voters and fans get caught up in looking at the names of races and the grades of them and don't really look beneath the surface. There are people out there that voted Zenyatta this time because she had more grade one wins than Blame.

I also feel that horses need to stop being penalized so heavily for losses, especially to other good horses. It's not fair to Skip Away and Formal Gold that they took on each other several times and were both good enough to beat the other while Favorite Trick didn't have to take on anything close to them but won all of his starts so he got HOY. I've always felt that it was better to judge a horse by how good he was in his best wins rather than looking at his losses, especially if the losses came in obvious prep races.

To me, the problem is that they've gotten too far away from looking at the quality of the competition and just going by the names of the races..

By the way, if I was a voter, I'd have voted for Candy Ride as the HOY that season. I've been very clear in my opinion that as long as the rules are the way they are and one race is good enough to earn horses championships in other divisions, it's good enough to win them in all divisions. I have also stated that I don't believe that the one race has to be in the BC. In 2003, the single most impressive race I saw was the Pacific Classic. Considering how good Medaglia d'Oro was and to see Candy Ride treat him like a claimer sold me. Throw in a stakes record on the grass while beating a grade one winner on it and there was no doubt in my mind that Candy Ride was the best horse I saw that year. He didn't have the greatest resume but I thought his talent advantage overcame any record disadvantage.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

Again, I apologize.

As I said earlier, I find no fault in the schedule Mineshaft had. It was the type of schedule a HOY is supposed to have and they couldn't control who came to face them. They certainly didn't duck anyone and I agree, there was no other horse that put up a strong enough record to make anyone say "that horse should be HOY" over him. Each of the others had their flaws. My point was more about how I feel that voters and fans get caught up in looking at the names of races and the grades of them and don't really look beneath the surface. There are people out there that voted Zenyatta this time because she had more grade one wins than Blame.

I also feel that horses need to stop being penalized so heavily for losses, especially to other good horses. It's not fair to Skip Away and Formal Gold that they took on each other several times and were both good enough to beat the other while Favorite Trick didn't have to take on anything close to them but won all of his starts so he got HOY. I've always felt that it was better to judge a horse by how good he was in his best wins rather than looking at his losses, especially if the losses came in obvious prep races.

To me, the problem is that they've gotten too far away from looking at the quality of the competition and just going by the names of the races..

By the way, if I was a voter, I'd have voted for Candy Ride as the HOY that season. I've been very clear in my opinion that as long as the rules are the way they are and one race is good enough to earn horses championships in other divisions, it's good enough to win them in all divisions. I have also stated that I don't believe that the one race has to be in the BC. In 2003, the single most impressive race I saw was the Pacific Classic. Considering how good Medaglia d'Oro was and to see Candy Ride treat him like a claimer sold me. Throw in a stakes record on the grass while beating a grade one winner on it and there was no doubt in my mind that Candy Ride was the best horse I saw that year. He didn't have the greatest resume but I thought his talent advantage overcame any record disadvantage.

Candy Ride towered over those horses.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

Candy Ride towered over those horses.

Hes a beast in the Horse Race Fantasy game. Any surface, any distance. Monster.