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-   -   Divisional best by decade since 1900 (http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40863)

The Indomitable DrugS 02-08-2011 08:16 AM

Divisional best by decade since 1900
 
There are a great many variables that go into handicapping a race. Handicapping completed careers is far easier - you're simply comparing an entire racing career with another, in division, from a relatively similar time period in history.

Horses are rated divisionally - by decade - based on accomplishment and ability. Hence horses who had superior ability at peak (like Formal Gold and Candy Ride types of recent) will be rated behind the slightly less monsterous who campaigned hard and achieved a lot more. I've put even a little less emphasis on peak ability than in the past - because it is so much harder to uncover it in charts and pp's with old, old-time horses.

1900's:

2yo: Colin
3yo's: Sysonby, Fitz Herbert, Hermis, Colin
Older horse: Hermis, Ballot, Roseben, King James

1910's:

2yo: Man O' War
3yo: Roamer, Sir Barton, Friar Rock, The Finn
Older horse: Whisk Broom, Old Rosebud, Roamer, Cudgel

1920's:

2yo: Morvich
3yo: Man O' War, Reigh Count, Grey Lag, Crusader
Older horse: Exterminator, Sarazen, Sun Beau, Chance Play

1930's:

2yo: Top Flight (f)
3yo: War Admiral, Gallant Fox, Twenty Grand, Omaha
Older horse: Discovery, Equipoise, Seabiscuit, War Admiral

1940's:

2yo: Count Fleet
3yo: Citation, Whirlaway, Count Fleet, Assault
Older horse: Whirlaway, Armed, Coaltown, Challedon

1950's:

2yo: Native Dancer
3yo: Native Dancer, Bold Ruler, Swaps, Sword Dancer
Older horse: Round Table, Tom Fool, Swaps, Nashua

1960's:

2yo: Buckpasser
3yo: Damascus, Buckpasser, Arts and Letters, Kelso
Older horse: Kelso, Dr. Fager, Gun Bow, Native Diver

1970's:

2yo: Ruffian (f)
3yo: Secretariat, Spectacular Bid, Affirmed, Alydar
Older horse: Forego, Affirmed, Ack Ack, Seattle Slew

1980's:

2yo: Easy Goer
3yo: Sunday Silence, Easy Goer, Spend A Buck, Conquistador Cielo
Older horse: Spectacular Bid, Alysheba, John Henry, Ferdinand

1990's:

2yo: Favorite Trick
3yo: Holy Bull, Silver Charm, Skip Away, Unbridled
Older horse: Skip Away, Cigar, Criminal Type, Gentlemen

2000-to-2009:

2yo: War Pass
3yo: Smarty Jones, Tiznow, Point Given, Bernardini
Older horse: Ghostzapper, Mineshaft, Medaglia D' Oro, Invasor


Best since 1900:

2yo: Native Dancer
3yo: Citation, Secretariat, Spectacular Bid, Damascus
Older horse: Kelso, Forego, Discovery, Spectacular Bid

If you're more partial to old, old-time horses than I am - Colin is your 2yo and rate Discovery ahead of Forego and Equipoise ahead of Spectacular Bid.

While the 1900's through the 1920's was tricky - so few horses actually raced that it wasn't a tough process to identify who the seven or so best were and to - in some cases - try and split hairs. The best 3yo from '00 to '09 is brutal though. Smarty Jones could almost as easily been rated 9th best as best.

knickslions2 02-08-2011 08:33 AM

Hard to leave Curlin off the list both 3 year old and older 2000-2009.

The Indomitable DrugS 02-08-2011 09:20 AM

I was a fan of Curlin but he's very hard to include as an older horse. His big celebrated win as an older horse was a very weak Dubai World Cup.

He for sure could be included as a 3-year-old. That was a total case of splitting hairs - but those sound defeats in the Derby and Haskell and losing to Rags to Riches in the Belmont don't help him. The older horses were awful when he was around.

randallscott35 02-08-2011 09:34 AM

Bless your heart putting Mineshaft in there. Flowers coming to Erie.

The Indomitable DrugS 02-08-2011 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randallscott35 (Post 750185)
Bless your heart putting Mineshaft in there. Flowers coming to Erie.

Mineshaft sucked until he got lasix.

Mineshaft, Medaglia D' Oro, Congaree, Candy Ride all at their peak the same year. They sometimes made horses look hopelessly common who would be handicap superstars today.

randallscott35 02-08-2011 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS (Post 750190)
Mineshaft sucked until he got lasix.

Mineshaft, Medaglia D' Oro, Congaree, Candy Ride all at their peak the same year. They sometimes made horses look hopelessly common who would be handicap superstars today.

So he was a bleeder who cares? All I know is Howard isn't a cheater and that horse was awesome without Frankeljuice.

MISTERGEE 02-08-2011 10:21 AM

just curious, how did Saint Liam compare to those

MISTERGEE 02-08-2011 10:27 AM

landaluces 82' season as a 2yo was a monster

The Indomitable DrugS 02-08-2011 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MISTERGEE (Post 750200)
just curious, how did Saint Liam compare to those

He gave Ghostzapper a great race in the Woodward when he floated him out to the hot dog stand. His Woodward win the following year was tainted by the fact Dutrow used two rabbits to take care of Commentator...leaving only Sir Shackelton to beat. He beat Flower Alley and Perfect Drift in a BC Classic that was as slow as any figure wise since this past years.

I don't think SL was quite as good as Ghostzapper, Mineshaft, or MDO - he had some races that could beat Invasor, but I think Invasor beat a lot better BC Classic field.

The Indomitable DrugS 02-08-2011 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MISTERGEE (Post 750202)
landaluces 82' season as a 2yo was a monster

Speaking along the lines of a Landaluce type 2yo - this Old Rosebud was one of the most bad ass old, old-time horses. I'm not sure Man O' War had anything on him as a 2yo.

This was his form going into the 1914 Kentucky Derby:




Here's the chart of his KY Derby win:



He won the KY Derby by 8 lengths at 4/5 odds - shaved 1.40 seconds off of the track record on a track that wasn't even yielding times all that fast. Good solid male sprinters went 6f in 1:13 3/5 in one race and 1:14 in another race - so 2:03 2/5 at Churchill is booking. The strong 2nd choice was a clear 2nd. He later won a bunch stakes at Churchill - including the Clark Handicap two years in a row. Big gaps all over. That's a race you'd project a figure in like the low 120's for.

Old Rosebud gets hurt in his very next race after the KY Derby and is laid off for 3 years. He returns off of a 3-year layoff and wins 15 of 21 races and gets credited as Horse of the Year as a 6yo.

MISTERGEE 02-08-2011 11:01 AM

surprised more people dont know about this one even though from 1914, what a record, adn also amazing after that 3 yrs off

cabvmd 02-08-2011 11:25 AM

Great stuff, I love history and horse racing is very much a part of American History.

Glad to see Buckpasser in there, he is my horse's grandfather.:)

slotdirt 02-08-2011 11:52 AM

Old Rosebud would have been a PETA case had he died in 2011 rather than 1922.

RockHardTen1985 02-08-2011 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knickslions2 (Post 750170)
Hard to leave Curlin off the list both 3 year old and older 2000-2009.

Hard to put him on IMO.

somerfrost 02-08-2011 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS (Post 750165)
There are a great many variables that go into handicapping a race. Handicapping completed careers is far easier - you're simply comparing an entire racing career with another, in division, from a relatively similar time period in history.

Horses are rated divisionally - by decade - based on accomplishment and ability. Hence horses who had superior ability at peak (like Formal Gold and Candy Ride types of recent) will be rated behind the slightly less monsterous who campaigned hard and achieved a lot more. I've put even a little less emphasis on peak ability than in the past - because it is so much harder to uncover it in charts and pp's with old, old-time horses.

1900's:

2yo: Colin
3yo's: Sysonby, Fitz Herbert, Hermis, Colin
Older horse: Hermis, Ballot, Roseben, King James

1910's:

2yo: Man O' War
3yo: Roamer, Sir Barton, Friar Rock, The Finn
Older horse: Whisk Broom, Old Rosebud, Roamer, Cudgel

1920's:

2yo: Morvich
3yo: Man O' War, Reigh Count, Grey Lag, Crusader
Older horse: Exterminator, Sarazen, Sun Beau, Chance Play

1930's:

2yo: Top Flight (f)
3yo: War Admiral, Gallant Fox, Twenty Grand, Omaha
Older horse: Discovery, Equipoise, Seabiscuit, War Admiral

1940's:

2yo: Count Fleet
3yo: Citation, Whirlaway, Count Fleet, Assault
Older horse: Whirlaway, Armed, Coaltown, Challedon

1950's:

2yo: Native Dancer
3yo: Native Dancer, Bold Ruler, Swaps, Sword Dancer
Older horse: Round Table, Tom Fool, Swaps, Nashua

1960's:

2yo: Buckpasser
3yo: Damascus, Buckpasser, Arts and Letters, Kelso
Older horse: Kelso, Dr. Fager, Gun Bow, Native Diver

1970's:

2yo: Ruffian (f)
3yo: Secretariat, Spectacular Bid, Affirmed, Alydar
Older horse: Forego, Affirmed, Ack Ack, Seattle Slew

1980's:

2yo: Easy Goer
3yo: Sunday Silence, Easy Goer, Spend A Buck, Conquistador Cielo
Older horse: Spectacular Bid, Alysheba, John Henry, Ferdinand

1990's:

2yo: Favorite Trick
3yo: Holy Bull, Silver Charm, Skip Away, Unbridled
Older horse: Skip Away, Cigar, Criminal Type, Gentlemen

2000-to-2009:

2yo: War Pass
3yo: Smarty Jones, Tiznow, Point Given, Bernardini
Older horse: Ghostzapper, Mineshaft, Medaglia D' Oro, Invasor


Best since 1900:

2yo: Native Dancer
3yo: Citation, Secretariat, Spectacular Bid, Damascus
Older horse: Kelso, Forego, Discovery, Spectacular Bid

If you're more partial to old, old-time horses than I am - Colin is your 2yo and rate Discovery ahead of Forego and Equipoise ahead of Spectacular Bid.

While the 1900's through the 1920's was tricky - so few horses actually raced that it wasn't a tough process to identify who the seven or so best were and to - in some cases - try and split hairs. The best 3yo from '00 to '09 is brutal though. Smarty Jones could almost as easily been rated 9th best as best.

Nice list Drugs....nice to see Old Rosebud get some well deserved love!

knickslions2 02-08-2011 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RockHardTen1985 (Post 750244)
Hard to put him on IMO.

I like the list here but Curlin had a nice career

He was named Horse of the Year in 2007 and 2008, and was also Champion 3-year-old in 2007 and Champion Older Male in 2008. Some of his major wins include the Breeders' Cup Classic, Jockey Club Gold Cup (twice), Dubai World Cup, Preakness, Rebel, Arkansas Derby, Stephen Foster Handicap, and Woodward Stakes. Curlin retired with 11 wins in 16 starts and earnings of over $10.5 million, the most ever by a thoroughbred race horse.

Linny 02-08-2011 02:00 PM

I tend to agree with the original list, but have not yet taken the time for my own research. Certainly no one on there simply dosn't belong.

Curlin won a bunch of important races and had a very good career but at 3 he lost the Belmont to a filly and the Haskell which he shouldn't have. (I am willing to give his Derby a pass as he was still very much a work in progress at the time, having just debuted on Feb 7.) I guess in retrospect they should have passed on the grass experiment and manybe loked at the Foster (I don't have dates here, but I'm guessing that it was close in time to the grass race.) Like many modern horses they picked and chose their spots to avoid certain rivals and meet the easiest fields, then stood back and said "See how great he is!"

trackrat59 02-08-2011 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cabvmd (Post 750221)
Great stuff, I love history and horse racing is very much a part of American History.Glad to see Buckpasser in there, he is my horse's grandfather.:)

More people should know who are not familiar with the sport.

Linny 02-08-2011 02:14 PM

Commando came mighty close to Colin and I'd give him 2nd place in the 1900's 2yos. I might also squeak Zev in for 1920's 3yo's. I wonder what happened to him in the Preakness?

Kasept 02-08-2011 02:34 PM

Some great inclusions in there Doug...

Challedon is a horse not nearly enough people know about. Gun Bow another that whose praises aren't sung enough.

Devil Diver merits an honorable mention in the 40's, no? And what do you do in a survey like this with my favorite, Gallorette?


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