All time best horses

somerfrost · #1 02-04-2011, 12:27 PM

Those who know me are aware that I maintain an "all time best top 100" list just to maintain some knowledge of the sport and it's history. Obviously this is a highly subjective undertaking and just one old railbird's opinion. Not to overly bore folks, here is my updated top 20:
(1) Secretariat (1970)...simply the best
(2) Kincsem (1874)...towers above others of her generation
(3) Ribot (1952)...record speaks for itself
(4) Man O War (1917)...wish they hadn't ducked Exterminator
(5) Citation (1945)...defines "Warhorse"
(6) Sea Bird (1962)...Arc wonder
(7) Flying Childers (1715)...first great one
(8) Spectacular Bid (1976)...should have won TC
(9) Count Fleet (1940)...vastly underrated
(10) Native Dancer (1950)...great sire but don't forget races
(11) Zenyatta (2004)...either love her or not
(12) Eclipse (1764)...father of modern day horses
(13) St Simon (1881)
(14) Kelso (1957)
(15) Ruffian ((1972)
(16) War Admiral (1934)
(17) Seattle Slew (1974)
(18) Affirmed (1975)
(19) Colin (1905)
(20) Exterminator (1915)

randallscott35 · #2 02-04-2011, 12:40 PM

Face Palm just based on where you have Bid alone.

somerfrost · #3 02-04-2011, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randallscott35

Face Palm just based on where you have Bid alone.

As I said...Just one guy's opinion.

FATPIANO · #4 02-04-2011, 12:58 PM

The Bid at 8???????????? what r u drinking? opinions are fine, but basic knowledge of racing puts him in top 5. IMO he is number 1

somerfrost · #5 02-04-2011, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FATPIANO

The Bid at 8???????????? what r u drinking? opinions are fine, but basic knowledge of racing puts him in top 5. IMO he is number 1

As I said, it's easy to be critical...very few folks rate the Bid that high but your opinion is as good as mine. Don't question my knowledge of racing history simply because I disagree with you. The Bid had a wonderful 4yo season and finished 30/26-2-1. Obviously a great horse but same can be said for the 7 I rate above him.

robfla · #6 02-04-2011, 01:38 PM

I just don't know how you can rate a horse #2 that raced predominately in Hungary and Austria in the late 1800's. Sure, she was undefeated, but lots of walkovers and weak competition.

somerfrost · #7 02-04-2011, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robfla

I just don't know how you can rate a horse #2 that raced predominately in Hungary and Austria in the late 1800's. Sure, she was undefeated, but lots of walkovers and weak competition.

Fair question...54/54-0-0, raced all over Europe actually and routinely destroyed males, raced all distances from short sprints to marathon distances, carried over 160 poinds and spotted her male foes 20-30 pounds. Certainly in a class of her own during her career...level of competition is always a question...again. a judgement call.

Cannon Shell · #8 02-04-2011, 01:54 PM

I understand why you posted this so I will bite. Zenyatta at 11? I am not sure she is the 11th best filly of all time if we are going to include horses from the 1800's. I'm anxious to hear why she is better than Kelso or Dr Fager who doesnt even make the top 20????

Cannon Shell · #9 02-04-2011, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Fair question...54/54-0-0, raced all over Europe actually and routinely destroyed males, raced all distances from short sprints to marathon distances, carried over 160 poinds and spotted her male foes 20-30 pounds. Certainly in a class of her own during her career...level of competition is always a question...again. a judgement call.

A lot easier to make judgement calls on horses that someone in our lifetime may have actually saw.

GBBob · #10 02-04-2011, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

A lot easier to make judgement calls on horses that someone in our lifetime may have actually saw.

I think there are a few on this board who saw them all run

Cannon Shell · #11 02-04-2011, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GBBob

I think there are a few on this board who saw them all run

There are some people here who haven't seen the field since it left the gate

somerfrost · #12 02-04-2011, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I understand why you posted this so I will bite. Zenyatta at 11? I am not sure she is the 11th best filly of all time if we are going to include horses from the 1800's. I'm anxious to hear why she is better than Kelso or Dr Fager who doesnt even make the top 20????

Kelso was a warhorse, 5 times HOY and a record of 63/39-12-2, Dr Fager (ranked #21 by the way) was 22/18-2-1 (only out of money finish was a DQ from a winning effort). Zenyatta was a nose from being perfect in her career despite being a dead closer, the hardest racing style to compile victories. She can be criticised for level of competition but visually she was tremendous, looking at the great horses of history, the vast majority were stalkers with tactical speed...I personally upgrade her quite a bit because of her running style.

somerfrost · #13 02-04-2011, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GBBob

I think there are a few on this board who saw them all run

I'm old but not that old...seriously, one must rely on data from others to compile a list such as this, never saw Man O War for that matter but the literature makes it easy to appreciate his greatness.

Cannon Shell · #14 02-04-2011, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Kelso was a warhorse, 5 times HOY and a record of 63/39-12-2, Dr Fager (ranked #21 by the way) was 22/18-2-1 (only out of money finish was a DQ from a winning effort). Zenyatta was a nose from being perfect in her career despite being a dead closer, the hardest racing style to compile victories. She can be criticised for level of competition but visually she was tremendous, looking at the great horses of history, the vast majority were stalkers with tactical speed...I personally upgrade her quite a bit because of her running style.

So she is ranked as the 11th best horse of all time because she was a closer and almost was undefeated? Wouldn't your case have more merit had she taken on the miserable group of older horses in the country more than twice? I understand that it simply an opinion however when you examine her record there are very few really historically signifigant performances.

Thunder Gulch · #15 02-04-2011, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Kelso was a warhorse, 5 times HOY and a record of 63/39-12-2, Dr Fager (ranked #21 by the way) was 22/18-2-1 (only out of money finish was a DQ from a winning effort). Zenyatta was a nose from being perfect in her career despite being a dead closer, the hardest racing style to compile victories. She can be criticised for level of competition but visually she was tremendous, looking at the great horses of history, the vast majority were stalkers with tactical speed...I personally upgrade her quite a bit because of her running style.

But her running style was not disadvantaged on the synthetic surfaces in which she compiled her record.

Cannon Shell · #16 02-04-2011, 02:28 PM

Zenyatta is like Andy Pettitte. Pettitte is the all time winningist playoff pitcher in baseball history. He was a really good pitcher. But no one is calling Andy Pettitte the 11th or 12th best pitcher in history.

Cannon Shell · #17 02-04-2011, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunder Gulch

But her running style was not disadvantaged on the synthetic surfaces in which she compiled her record.

What difference does it mak how you run when you run in inferior races? Is what I ultimately would ask.

somerfrost · #18 02-04-2011, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

So she is ranked as the 11th best horse of all time because she was a closer and almost was undefeated? Wouldn't your case have more merit had she taken on the miserable group of older horses in the country more than twice? I understand that it simply an opinion however when you examine her record there are very few really historically signifigant performances.

I think you nailed it when you said "miserable group of older horses", not sure racing against the males those years would really elevate her that much. I put a lot of stock in certain races...the Arc in France, the Triple Crown and the BCC, I have Tiznow at #34 because of his BCC wins (otherwise nothing that special), my lowest rated TC winner is Sir Barton at #51, and his effort was before the TC was even named.

somerfrost · #19 02-04-2011, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

What difference does it mak how you run when you run in inferior races? Is what I ultimately would ask.

I don't consider the BCC an inferior race.

Cannon Shell · #20 02-04-2011, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by somerfrost

I think you nailed it when you said "miserable group of older horses", not sure racing against the males those years would really elevate her that much. I put a lot of stock in certain races...the Arc in France, the Triple Crown and the BCC, I have Tiznow at #34 because of his BCC wins (otherwise nothing that special), my lowest rated TC winner is Sir Barton at #51, and his effort was before the TC was even named.

Using that logic how is Tiznow rated below Zenyatta? Didn't he win the Classic twice? Are her narrow, all out wins over the weak fillies that she faced more impressive?

When you sit down and write down her list of accomplishments and compare to others she is usually dwarfed in achievment. She won a bunch of the same old, synthetic races in CA over and over. The Apple Blossom is NOT big race in this country.