All time best horses

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by robfla

I just don't know how you can rate a horse #2 that raced predominately in Hungary and Austria in the late 1800's. Sure, she was undefeated, but lots of walkovers and weak competition.

Fair question...54/54-0-0, raced all over Europe actually and routinely destroyed males, raced all distances from short sprints to marathon distances, carried over 160 poinds and spotted her male foes 20-30 pounds. Certainly in a class of her own during her career...level of competition is always a question...again. a judgement call.

[Cannon Shell]

I understand why you posted this so I will bite. Zenyatta at 11? I am not sure she is the 11th best filly of all time if we are going to include horses from the 1800's. I'm anxious to hear why she is better than Kelso or Dr Fager who doesnt even make the top 20????

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I understand why you posted this so I will bite. Zenyatta at 11? I am not sure she is the 11th best filly of all time if we are going to include horses from the 1800's. I'm anxious to hear why she is better than Kelso or Dr Fager who doesnt even make the top 20????

Kelso was a warhorse, 5 times HOY and a record of 63/39-12-2, Dr Fager (ranked #21 by the way) was 22/18-2-1 (only out of money finish was a DQ from a winning effort). Zenyatta was a nose from being perfect in her career despite being a dead closer, the hardest racing style to compile victories. She can be criticised for level of competition but visually she was tremendous, looking at the great horses of history, the vast majority were stalkers with tactical speed...I personally upgrade her quite a bit because of her running style.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Kelso was a warhorse, 5 times HOY and a record of 63/39-12-2, Dr Fager (ranked #21 by the way) was 22/18-2-1 (only out of money finish was a DQ from a winning effort). Zenyatta was a nose from being perfect in her career despite being a dead closer, the hardest racing style to compile victories. She can be criticised for level of competition but visually she was tremendous, looking at the great horses of history, the vast majority were stalkers with tactical speed...I personally upgrade her quite a bit because of her running style.

So she is ranked as the 11th best horse of all time because she was a closer and almost was undefeated? Wouldn't your case have more merit had she taken on the miserable group of older horses in the country more than twice? I understand that it simply an opinion however when you examine her record there are very few really historically signifigant performances.

[Cannon Shell]

Zenyatta is like Andy Pettitte. Pettitte is the all time winningist playoff pitcher in baseball history. He was a really good pitcher. But no one is calling Andy Pettitte the 11th or 12th best pitcher in history.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

So she is ranked as the 11th best horse of all time because she was a closer and almost was undefeated? Wouldn't your case have more merit had she taken on the miserable group of older horses in the country more than twice? I understand that it simply an opinion however when you examine her record there are very few really historically signifigant performances.

I think you nailed it when you said "miserable group of older horses", not sure racing against the males those years would really elevate her that much. I put a lot of stock in certain races...the Arc in France, the Triple Crown and the BCC, I have Tiznow at #34 because of his BCC wins (otherwise nothing that special), my lowest rated TC winner is Sir Barton at #51, and his effort was before the TC was even named.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

I think you nailed it when you said "miserable group of older horses", not sure racing against the males those years would really elevate her that much. I put a lot of stock in certain races...the Arc in France, the Triple Crown and the BCC, I have Tiznow at #34 because of his BCC wins (otherwise nothing that special), my lowest rated TC winner is Sir Barton at #51, and his effort was before the TC was even named.

Using that logic how is Tiznow rated below Zenyatta? Didn't he win the Classic twice? Are her narrow, all out wins over the weak fillies that she faced more impressive?

When you sit down and write down her list of accomplishments and compare to others she is usually dwarfed in achievment. She won a bunch of the same old, synthetic races in CA over and over. The Apple Blossom is NOT big race in this country.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Using that logic how is Tiznow rated below Zenyatta? Didn't he win the Classic twice? Are her narrow, all out wins over the weak fillies that she faced more impressive?

When you sit down and write down her list of accomplishments and compare to others she is usually dwarfed in achievment. She won a bunch of the same old, synthetic races in CA over and over. The Apple Blossom is NOT big race in this country.

Tiznow was 15/8-4-2. Zenyatta ran as hard as she needed to, margain of victory may not be impressive but her races certainly were. In a way, she reminds one of Kincsem who would often spot the field many lengths while grazing as the race began only to run them down at will.

[DaTruth]

The ancient horses get extra credit because they raced at longer distances. As great as Secretariat was, he was unproven at four miles.

[hoovesupsideyourhead]

onion # 72

[Thunder Gulch]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Kelso was a warhorse, 5 times HOY and a record of 63/39-12-2, Dr Fager (ranked #21 by the way) was 22/18-2-1 (only out of money finish was a DQ from a winning effort). Zenyatta was a nose from being perfect in her career despite being a dead closer, the hardest racing style to compile victories. She can be criticised for level of competition but visually she was tremendous, looking at the great horses of history, the vast majority were stalkers with tactical speed...I personally upgrade her quite a bit because of her running style.

But her running style was not disadvantaged on the synthetic surfaces in which she compiled her record.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Thunder Gulch

But her running style was not disadvantaged on the synthetic surfaces in which she compiled her record.

What difference does it mak how you run when you run in inferior races? Is what I ultimately would ask.

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

What difference does it mak how you run when you run in inferior races? Is what I ultimately would ask.

I don't consider the BCC an inferior race.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

I don't consider the BCC an inferior race.

What about the 17 other mostly inferior races?

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I understand why you posted this so I will bite. Zenyatta at 11? I am not sure she is the 11th best filly of all time if we are going to include horses from the 1800's. I'm anxious to hear why she is better than Kelso or Dr Fager who doesnt even make the top 20????

forego, john henry, round table...left off, but the pretender is number eleven all time.
this thread should be moved to esoteric under 'heard any good jokes lately?'

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by somerfrost

Fair question...54/54-0-0, raced all over Europe actually and routinely destroyed males, raced all distances from short sprints to marathon distances, carried over 160 poinds and spotted her male foes 20-30 pounds. Certainly in a class of her own during her career...level of competition is always a question...again. a judgement call.

A lot easier to make judgement calls on horses that someone in our lifetime may have actually saw.

[GBBob]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

A lot easier to make judgement calls on horses that someone in our lifetime may have actually saw.

I think there are a few on this board who saw them all run

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by GBBob

I think there are a few on this board who saw them all run

There are some people here who haven't seen the field since it left the gate

[somerfrost]

Originally Posted by GBBob

I think there are a few on this board who saw them all run

I'm old but not that old...seriously, one must rely on data from others to compile a list such as this, never saw Man O War for that matter but the literature makes it easy to appreciate his greatness.