Obama's support for Ground Zero Mosque

[Honu]

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

i think the problem is you're conflating an act of war by a foreign government with an act of terrorism by people who were muslim.

there is no united states of islam that attacked us.

confusing the two doesn't serve any national goal. it serves a narrow political purpose for one party over the next few months.

But the terrorists have declared war on "us" just because they dont all reside in one country doesnt mean that it isnt a combined effort. Just like Im sure not all the Japanese people wanted to have a war with America but the loudest and proudest did. So when the Taliban was in control of the government of Afghanastan and sent out its recruits to commit Jihad against the infidels that wasnt a sort of "government " act?
Anyway, I just think that the American Islamic community should be just a little more sensitive to the people of New York and how close to the surface this still is for them. Yes they have a right to do whatever they want to do but if they were really trying to bridge a gap between how they are and how people percieve Muslims then they would say" hey you know what, we feel you New Yorkers and we will move our cultural center somewhere else".
Instead they are pushing forward with something that is causing protests and arguments and think its just fine. They need to set an expmple of the religion of peace by making some and putting their building somewhere else.

[hi_im_god]

Originally Posted by Honu

But the terrorists have declared war on "us" just because they dont all reside in one country doesnt mean that it isnt a combined effort. Just like Im sure not all the Japanese people wanted to have a war with America but the loudest and proudest did. So when the Taliban was in control of the government of Afghanastan and sent out its recruits to commit Jihad against the infidels that wasnt a sort of "government " act?
Anyway, I just think that the American Islamic community should be just a little more sensitive to the people of New York and how close to the surface this still is for them. Yes they have a right to do whatever they want to do but if they were really trying to bridge a gap between how they are and how people percieve Muslims then they would say" hey you know what, we feel you New Yorkers and we will move our cultural center somewhere else".
Instead they are pushing forward with something that is causing protests and arguments and think its just fine. They need to set an expmple of the religion of peace by making some and putting their building somewhere else.

if we're going to successful in the struggle against religious extremism, we need to educate ourselves enough that we can distinguish between terrorists and muslims.

some muslims are going to be terrorists. a lot of terrorists are going to be muslim. i get all that.

but i think the united states vs. muslims is a much tougher fight than the united states vs. terrorists and i just hope we don't waste so much time jerking off over what serves narrow short term political gain that we lose sight of what actually matters for our long term benefit.

sufis are the unitarians of the the islamic world. if we don't have them on our side, we've taken on a much tougher fight than needed.

[Honu]

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

if we're going to successful in the struggle against religious extremism, we need to educate ourselves enough that we can distinguish between terrorists and muslims.

some muslims are going to be terrorists. a lot of terrorists are going to be muslim. i get all that.

but i think the united states vs. muslims is a much tougher fight than the united states vs. terrorists and i just hope we don't waste so much time jerking off over what serves narrow short term political gain that we lose sight of what actually matters for our long term benefit.

sufis are the unitarians of the the islamic world. if we don't have them on our side, we've taken on a much tougher fight than needed.

If they dont see the trouble and hurt that they are causing then how can they expect to have people on their side.

[hi_im_god]

Originally Posted by Honu

If they dont see the trouble and hurt that they are causing then how can they expect to have people on their side.

ditto. just take a larger world view.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Honu

If they dont see the trouble and hurt that they are causing then how can they expect to have people on their side.

an incredibly insightful post. one of your best ever. now, just apply that to your point of view, try it on for size. it works both ways.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Danzig

an incredibly insightful post. one of your best ever. now, just apply that to your point of view, try it on for size. it works both ways.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by Danzig

an incredibly insightful post. one of your best ever. now, just apply that to your point of view, try it on for size. it works both ways.

They're the ones that choose to participate in a "religion" that encourages killing members that want to leave. They're the ones that participate in a "religion" that calls for either killing non-muslims, or taxing them for not being Muslim. Stuff like this could be why Honu is upset about this, and not about Buddhists, and Hindus.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

They're the ones that choose to participate in a "religion" that encourages killing members that want to leave. They're the ones that participate in a "religion" that calls for either killing non-muslims, or taxing them for not being Muslim. Stuff like this could be why Honu is upset about this, and not about Buddhists, and Hindus.

you're wrong. not all muslims view everything in the same way. i suggest you also educate yourself more about this. go find the article i posted from the new york times, it might enlighten you. then again...no, it probably wouldn't. you believing the above doesn't make it true. hopefull there will always be more open- than closed-minded people in this country, otherwise we're all screwed.

and really, i agree with miraja and a few others who have said similar-we'd all be better off without any of these religions. most of the people who say they follow them don't anyway. take most christians, they no more follow the teachings of jesus than my cat does. look at the story the other day about the christian school that wouldn't let the girl be a student because she has two moms. yeah, that's exactly what jesus taught.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by Danzig

you're wrong. not all muslims view everything in the same way. i suggest you also educate yourself more about this. go find the article i posted from the new york times, it might enlighten you. then again...no, it probably wouldn't. you believing the above doesn't make it true. hopefull there will always be more open- than closed-minded people in this country, otherwise we're all screwed.

No, you are the closed minded one here. You continue to ignore the fact these people simply follow their prophet's teachings when they kill non-Moslems. They aren't rogue in the eyes of their prophet. When it comes to Islam, the facts are not on your side. You're holding the water for people who (if in the majority) would take away so many freedoms woman take for granted here.
This religion is serious business. They aren't playing, and you're dead wrong for believing people who follow a butcher. They've been given the right to lie to you(if it helps Islam.)

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

if we're going to successful in the struggle against religious extremism, we need to educate ourselves enough that we can distinguish between terrorists and muslims.

some muslims are going to be terrorists. a lot of terrorists are going to be muslim. i get all that.

but i think the united states vs. muslims is a much tougher fight than the united states vs. terrorists and i just hope we don't waste so much time jerking off over what serves narrow short term political gain that we lose sight of what actually matters for our long term benefit.

sufis are the unitarians of the the islamic world. if we don't have them on our side, we've taken on a much tougher fight than needed.

You do realize that the guy who shot up the Army in Texas wasn't a career terrorist. The guy who left a bomb in Manhattan (this last year) was also not a career terrorist. There is a risk that some otherwise peaceful Moslem going to this Mosque loses it, and starts shooting tourists over at ground zero. Just like insurance companies study risk, there is a level of risk here that I think is higher with members of this religion. I think putting a Mosque that close is highly questionable in judgement. I think it'd be safer for everyone involved if they show some better judgement. The reason there is a higher risk with this religion is because their prophet encouraged them to do these things to non-Muslims. It's not because someone has done something to them. They're prophet is the problem. They can blame their ways on a lot of people, but their prophet is the cause of all of this killing.

[hi_im_god]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

You do realize that the guy who shot up the Army in Texas wasn't a career terrorist. The guy who left a bomb in Manhattan (this last year) was also not a career terrorist. There is a risk that some otherwise peaceful Moslem going to this Mosque loses it, and starts shooting tourists over at ground zero. Just like insurance companies study risk, there is a level of risk here that I think is higher with members of this religion. I think putting a Mosque that close is highly questionable in judgement. I think it'd be safer for everyone involved if they show some better judgement.

i disagree that either of these acts were committed by an "otherwise peaceful" muslim who lost it.

both were committed by individuals who sought out support from known terrorist organizations.

i argue that making the assumption "all muslims are potential terrorists" doesn't actually serve our security needs. it works against them. we need the majority of muslims that aren't terrorists on our side.

unless you're a republican running for office, this ridiculous mosque debate won't help.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

i disagree that either of these acts were committed by an "otherwise peaceful" muslim who lost it.

both were committed by individuals who sought out support from known terrorist organizations.

Yea, but most of their lives were spent being as peaceful as the moslems who would attend this Mosque. They flipped out, and bad things tend to happen to non-Moslems when Moslems flip out.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

Yea, but most of their lives were spent being as peaceful as the moslems who would attend this Mosque. They flipped out, and bad things tend to happen to non-Moslems when Moslems flip out.

yeah, cause these terrorists only target non-muslims.

[hi_im_god]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

Yea, but most of their lives were spent being as peaceful as the moslems who would attend this Mosque. They flipped out, and bad things tend to happen to non-Moslems when Moslems flip out.

i guarantee that any violence by muslim terrorists in a sufi mosque is more likely directed at sufi's than any non-muslim.

nine years in i doubt more than one in ten americans can actually tell you the difference between a sunni and a shiite, much less anything subtler. most would think hezbollah is interchangeable with hamas.

we keep trying to fight dumb with dumber.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by hi_im_god

i guarantee that any violence by muslim terrorists in a sufi mosque is more likely directed at sufi's than any non-muslim.

nine years in i doubt more than one in ten americans can actually tell you the difference between a sunni and a shiite, much less anything subtler. most would think hezbollah is interchangeable with hamas.

we keep trying to fight dumb with dumber.

oh me, me, me!! I can!! *raises hand*

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by SCUDSBROTHER

Yea, but most of their lives were spent being as peaceful as the moslems who would attend this Mosque. They flipped out, and bad things tend to happen to non-Moslems when Moslems flip out.

Bad things tend to happen to non-murderers when murderers flip out. It's actually quite a bit more universal an adage than you may have first realized when typing that out.

[SCUDSBROTHER]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

Bad things tend to happen to non-murderers when murderers flip out. It's actually quite a bit more universal an adage than you may have first realized when typing that out.

They tend to have specific targets (based on not belonging to their group.) That comes from their prophet. This is something you apologists ignore routinely.