Belmont Entries for 5/29.... Very Poor

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Buckpasser

What a way to start a holiday weekend at Belmont.

Except for the feature, The (Grade II) Vagrancy, all the other races for Saturday are very mediocre.

Race 1 ALLOWANCE OPTIONAL CLAIMING $25,000 7 entered
Race 2 MAIDEN CLAIMING $25,000 9 entered
Race 3 MAIDEN CLAIMING $16,000 9 entered
Race 4 CLAIMING $15,000 9 betting interests
Race 5 MAIDEN CLAIMING $60,000 – $50,000 10 betting interests
Race 6 CLAIMING $25,000 9 betting interests
Race 7 MAIDEN SPECIAL WEIGHT 10 betting interests
Race 8 ALLOWANCE Purse $39,000 9 betting interests
Race 9 Vagrancy 7 entered
Race 10 MAIDEN SPECIAL WEIGHT 10 betting interests

Guess I take my money elsewhere...like Monmouth.

They're very mediocre and according to your headline very poor? You've handicapped the card already and declared the racing poor and mediocre? Interesting...

Six of the events are a graded stake, 2 MSW's, a high price MDN CLM, and 2 ALW's (one OC) and that's 'poor'. You haven't looked at the fields for one second, and it obviously didn't occur to you to even look at the size of the fields, but it's fashionable to call the racing poor and mediocre, so why not? Take your money wherever you want, but your comment about this first of three big days of racing leading up to Met Mile, ahead of the Belmont meet's biggest day of racing, is just ignorant.

[Buckpasser]

Originally Posted by Kasept

They're very mediocre and according to your headline very poor? You've handicapped the card already and declared the racing poor and mediocre? Interesting...

Six of the events are a graded stake, 2 MSW's, a high price MDN CLM, and 2 ALW's (one OC) and that's 'poor'. You haven't looked at the fields for one second, and it obviously didn't occur to you to even look at the size of the fields, but it's fashionable to call the racing poor and mediocre, so why not? Take your money wherever you want, but your comment about this first of three big days of racing leading up to Met Mile, ahead of the Belmont meet's biggest day of racing, is just ignorant.

I respect you very much Steve and think you are great, and your show is great, but you sound like a shill for the NYRA trying to defend this crappy card. 5 Maiden races on a Saturday, and three of them maiden claimers? come on, that just sucks. Maybe during the week it's ok but on a Holiday weekend? I disagree.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by Buckpasser

I respect you very much Steve and think you are great, and your show is great, but you sound like a shill for the NYRA trying to defend this crappy card. 5 Maiden races on a Saturday, and three of them maiden claimers? come on, that just sucks. Maybe during the week it's ok but on a Holiday weekend? I disagree.

Do you believe that NYRA is holding back some great stash of better horses?

The horses that are available to PJ Campo right now are not the types they used to be. This isn't news to anyone and this card, unfortunately, is very typical of what has gone on over the last few months.

Is Campo doing a good job carding competitive races that make for good wagering affairs? Sure. Is he doing so with top shelf horses? No.

Go wager on Monmouth. Remember it too because next year when they've returned to anonymity with a fraction of their current purse structure they'll need you.

NT

[MisterB]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Do you believe that NYRA is holding back some great stash of better horses?

The horses that are available to PJ Campo right now are not the types they used to be. This isn't news to anyone and this card, unfortunately, is very typical of what has gone on over the last few months.

Is Campo doing a good job carding competitive races that make for good wagering affairs? Sure. Is he doing so with top shelf horses? No.

Go wager on Monmouth. Remember it too because next year when they've returned to anonymity with a fraction of their current purse structure they'll need you.

NT

So you have taken a position of the failure of Monmouth. Better go read some more. I'm surprised, but not really.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by MisterB

So you have taken a position of the failure of Monmouth. Better go read some more. I'm surprised, but not really.

I've taken the position that this is a one year thing. I don't believe that the subsidy will continue next year. There's already opposition from some state senators that the casinos should not be paying anything toward the racetracks. If sentiment grows to let the racetracks go on their own then the NJSEA is in big trouble.

I should know better than to expect anything rational from state governments. I applaud Monmouth for what they're doing now and they're going to have a terrific summer but whether they have the means to do it again is unlikely in my opinion.

NT

If it's this bad then why ask for the $25 million? That's not going to solve the problem.

Just shut the meet down and wait for Saratoga or kick out the trainers who keep scratching their horses and make it indefinitely.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

I've taken the position that this is a one year thing. I don't believe that the subsidy will continue next year. There's already opposition from some state senators that the casinos should not be paying anything toward the racetracks. If sentiment grows to let the racetracks go on their own then the NJSEA is in big trouble.

I should know better than to expect anything rational from state governments. I applaud Monmouth for what they're doing now and they're going to have a terrific summer but whether they have the means to do it again is unlikely in my opinion.

NT

I don't disagree that this is a temporary situation. If I have to make an educated guess, the Atlantic City subsidy won't be there next year, or the state will make a reduced subsidy if this summer's numbers are good. That being said, if the handle remains like it was this past weekend, it could probably support a three-day schedule with $600K in daily purses. If that becomes the template, then this year will be a rousing success. Keep in mind that $600K would be twice what they gave out daily last year, and I suspect that there would be just as much demand to run at Monmouth with $600K in daily purses as there is this year with purses at a $1 million per day.

[Buckpasser]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Do you believe that NYRA is holding back some great stash of better horses?

The horses that are available to PJ Campo right now are not the types they used to be. This isn't news to anyone and this card, unfortunately, is very typical of what has gone on over the last few months.

Is Campo doing a good job carding competitive races that make for good wagering affairs? Sure. Is he doing so with top shelf horses? No.

Go wager on Monmouth. Remember it too because next year when they've returned to anonymity with a fraction of their current purse structure they'll need you.

NT

Point well made. Thanks for the reasoned response.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Do you believe that NYRA is holding back some great stash of better horses?

The horses that are available to PJ Campo right now are not the types they used to be. This isn't news to anyone and this card, unfortunately, is very typical of what has gone on over the last few months.

Is Campo doing a good job carding competitive races that make for good wagering affairs? Sure. Is he doing so with top shelf horses? No.

Go wager on Monmouth. Remember it too because next year when they've returned to anonymity with a fraction of their current purse structure they'll need you.

NT

And exactly why is this statement relevant to where we put our dollars this weekend and New York running 3 Maiden Claimer races on a Saturday weekend Holiday card? Tell Campo to talk to the Hammer, structure your best to be on a Saturday and structure your Wed-Fri to have the best chance of a Pck 6 carry into the weekend. Finally Customer Service 101, don't trash your customers (talk down to them) when they complain about the product. That happens all the time on this board.

[herkhorse]

maybe on a holiday weekend you want your best to be on the holiday, just thayin'.

[parsixfarms]

Originally Posted by Buckpasser

I respect you very much Steve and think you are great, and your show is great, but you sound like a shill for the NYRA trying to defend this crappy card. 5 Maiden races on a Saturday, and three of them maiden claimers? come on, that just sucks. Maybe during the week it's ok but on a Holiday weekend? I disagree.

Do you think that this is what NYRA is looking to put on the track? If you looked at the overnight, you would have noticed that the races that drew your ire (races 2-5) are all "extras." Of course, if our filly wins one of those "crappy" maiden claiming races (the 5th), I won't care what the rest of the day's races look like.

Reality is that they are having a tough time getting cards to go, and they have to use the horses on the grounds to satisfy the bettors' demand for big fields. (Our trainer entered five horses last Saturday for tomorrow's card, and only one race filled.) With the exception of Monmouth for the time being, every major racing jurisdiction is facing the same problem.

[Kasept]

Originally Posted by Buckpasser

I respect you very much Steve and think you are great, and your show is great, but you sound like a shill for the NYRA trying to defend this crappy card. 5 Maiden races on a Saturday, and three of them maiden claimers? come on, that just sucks. Maybe during the week it's ok but on a Holiday weekend? I disagree.

I didn't mean to respond so angrily... I apologize. But recognize that Sat, Sun, Mon and then next Fri and Sat has to feature probably 53-55 races including 13 stakes, so the absolutel highest quality racing may be saved for certain segments or sequences on the various cards.

But I'm troubled by the perception that the 'class' of the races Saturday are somehow instantly 'poor' because they're maiden races. How is a field of 12 New Jersey bred dime claimers any better or more appealling than 10 NY bred maidens?

[philcski]

I don't like the card either, but I understand why it's bad. There's the biggest day of the year in New York coming up next Saturday and obviously the appeal of running on that day (+ the added overnight purse money) trumps. That being said... I think it's OK to call a spade a spade. This is NOT a good card for a Saturday at Belmont Park. It's becoming more and more common that this is what we get from NYRA, unfortunately.

This sport needs a commissioner in the worst way. If something doesn't change the tracks in areas with a population will cease to exist and all that will be left is Indiana Downs and other tracks supported by rural degenerate meth-riddled slots/table players.

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

This sport needs a commissioner in the worst way. If something doesn't change the tracks in areas with a population will cease to exist and all that will be left is Indiana Downs and other tracks supported by rural degenerate meth-riddled slots/table players.

I think what you're trying to say is this... and I agree with you

Originally Posted by Coach Pants

Awful. But really I deserve to lose playing a $25k maiden claimer on the turf.

It's like asking them to take your money. If the cards continue to be this horrible in New York they might as well throw another $25 million to solve the problem.

Very true. I want to play New York.

The current trend of cheap claimers with 25%> scratches is extremely disconcerting. And it's happening not only in New York but also Kentucky and California.

Drastic changes need to happen in order for these tracks to survive. The first move in the right direction would be to boot the IRS out of the game.

[NoLuvForPletch]

My opinion, as small amount of respect that it might get, is that they are running an awful lot of maiden races these days at BEL.

Last Sunday's card was particularly disturbing, 5 Maiden races (3msw, 2 mcl), 4 claiming races at 25k and down, and an allowance race. That's a Sunday card in May in NY?

Overall in May of the 160 races run, a total of 60 have been Maiden races (30 msw, 30 mcl). 37%

But in the past week or so the 19th-26th the numbers increase to 43% and instead of a 50-50 split btwn msw and mcl we've had 8 msw and 16 mcl, including 5 maiden claiming races on yesterday's card.

While some of these races might make for good betting races (if you like throwing darts), the quality is just not there.

[Linny]

I tend to think this card is below par for a holiday weekend Saturday. I also think that by not having a dark day on Wed. they are spread even more thin.

Steve, I agree with your points about the politics but there is more than that. The game has changed dramatically over the last decade or so. The trend toward fewer races has tricked down from the graded stakes horses to listed stakes and allowance horses. The only horses running 10-15 times a year now are the cheap ones. That is what PJ and other racing secretaries have to contend with.

There was a time when they simply wouldn't run MDCL on grass so trainers with those horses went elsewhere. They didn't run $15kMDCLNYB so those horses went to Finger Lakes. There are alot of horses running at BEL this meet that 5-10 years ago would have been at the Lakes beating up horses that had just come out of a pasture in Genesseo, because they had recency. Now they stay in NY and win bad races. There have been races at BEL this year won by horses who will never break 50 on the Beyers, EVER. NY racing used to be elite, the pinnacle of racing on the east coast. Now, it is no different, day in and day out from any other venue.

NY has also handed over 2yo racing to KY. They will run the first 2yo's of the year today. They used to run 2yo stakes on Belmont weekend. Babies used to ease some of the stress of filling allowances and take the pressure off horses that had run all winter. If it were not for NYBreds, they might not be able to fill 2yo races 'til after July 4th. I'm not sure why this is since many of the KY baby races are overfilled and ames like Pletcher and Asmussen and others who run in NY are in them.

I am sure that PJ would love to fill Memorial Day weekend with allowances and stakes but any horse that ran in the last 2 weeks in those levels probablywon't be back for another 2-3 weeks. Presuming that Belmont day purses get the usual bump, many trainers will be pointing for next weekend.

While the handle at MON isn't level with that at BEL, they are up significanly from last year and it's fair to guess that some of that bump, is a loss to Belmont. Most players have a limited budget and wagers made and MON are wagers not made elsewhere.

[johnny pinwheel]

Originally Posted by Kasept

I didn't mean to respond so angrily... I apologize. But recognize that Sat, Sun, Mon and then next Fri and Sat has to feature probably 53-55 races including 13 stakes, so the absolutel highest quality racing may be saved for certain segments or sequences on the various cards.

But I'm troubled by the perception that the 'class' of the races Saturday are somehow instantly 'poor' because they're maiden races. How is a field of 12 New Jersey bred dime claimers any better or more appealling than 10 NY bred maidens?

they are not any more appealing. just my opinion but if one bets every race they are a sucker anyway. instead of looking at the whole card ANYWHERE, why not pick your spots. i love these people that bet every race at every track. nobody is that good but so many are that compulsive. with the three days at belmont there will be more than enough opportunities. play the best races at both tracks. why waste energy crying over which is better.(i never cashed a ticket on that bet) are you people interested in making money or just like arguing about which card is better? boo hoo...don't bet it, then waste all your time and energy crying about it. yeah, thats a winning attitude.

Originally Posted by johnny pinwheel

they are not any more appealing. just my opinion but if one bets every race they are a sucker anyway. instead of looking at the whole card ANYWHERE, why not pick your spots. i love these people that bet every race at every track. nobody is that good but so many are that compulsive. with the three days at belmont there will be more than enough opportunities. play the best races at both tracks. why waste energy crying over which is better.(i never cashed a ticket on that bet) are you people interested in making money or just like arguing about which card is better? boo hoo...don't bet it, then waste all your time and energy crying about it. yeah, thats a winning attitude.

You have to be in track management. If not, you really need to apply.