A new poll - for men only

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

Brian you are being pretty ridiculous right now...again. Without looking it up, I think the turf was probably soft or yielding, which might explain the slow times. Unless the turf at Arlington has gotten 5 seconds faster.

I'm not being ridiculous, I'm trying to make a point.

What is the par time for ten furlongs on Del Mar's polytrack? Based on how slow the rest of the races are being run on the surface, something tells me it's closer to 2:07 than it is to 2:00.

So anyone complaining about them going 2:07, and using that as an indicator that the race was necessariliy tainted, is actually comparing apples to oranges, to borrow an expression.

2:07 seems slow because people are comparing it to......dirt, which I may take a moment to remind you, Del Mar's surface is not.

In the same way, John Henry or Star of Cozzenne running a 2:07 does not discredit their performance because the turf they were running over was an inherently different surface from a traditional, firm, turf course that would produce times closer to 2:01. So to discredit their performances using the standard of a faster turf course would be silly.

So why are we doing it here?

What is so ridiculous about that question?

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by DaHoss9698

I don't believe I used the time as to why I think the race is tainted. I am almost positive I didn't. I said the surface is.

I know, and this whole time thing began in a response to Lori's post about how those "dogs" should be able to go faster than 2:07, to which Jamie agreed, and at which point I brought up the Million, at which point you called me ridiculous for doing so, at which point I explained myself, at which point you said you weren't talking about the time.

Whew. That's how we got here. You just got caught up in the conversation I was having with Jamie.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

I know, and this whole time thing began in a response to Lori's post about how those "dogs" should be able to go faster than 2:07, to which Jamie agreed, and at which point I brought up the Million, at which point you called me ridiculous for doing so, at which point I explained myself, at which point you said you weren't talking about the time.

Whew. That's how we got here. You just got caught up in the conversation I was having with Jamie.

LOL

This is what happens when women come in here uninvited.

[Antitrust32]

So Brian, your point is that Student Council is a deserving, $1 million dollar Grade 1 winner. DaHoss feels otherwise.

I happen to agree with Hossy and feel there is no way student council would be the pac classic winner if the race had not been on poly. It was an terribly weak race with a bunch of nobodys and Lava Man. If the race had not been on poly, hopefully a few better horses would have run in it, and there is no way student council wins. If the race had not been on poly, tiago would have run, and i feel would have crushed student council. (just mentioning tiago.. but I feel a handful of horses would have crushed SC) Student Council will be lucky to finish 5th or 6th in a Grade 1 on the dirt ever.

Therefore, the reason Student Council is a Grade one winner ..... Ding Ding! Polytrack!


So, on to a different point. Do you really like this poly crap and the blazing fast times they are running on it? I cant even watch that ****. Bring on a 385lb stripper.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

So Brian, your point is that Student Council is a deserving, $1 million dollar Grade 1 winner. DaHoss feels otherwise.

I happen to agree with Hossy and feel there is no way student council would be the pac classic winner if the race had not been on poly. It was an terribly weak race with a bunch of nobodys and Lava Man. If the race had not been on poly, hopefully a few better horses would have run in it, and there is no way student council wins. If the race had not been on poly, tiago would have run, and i feel would have crushed student council. (just mentioning tiago.. but I feel a handful of horses would have crushed SC) Student Council will be lucky to finish 5th or 6th in a Grade 1 on the dirt ever.

Therefore, the reason Student Council is a Grade one winner ..... Ding Ding! Polytrack!


So, on to a different point. Do you really like this poly crap and the blazing fast times they are running on it? I cant even watch that ****. Bring on a 385lb stripper.

ArlJim brought up some points, as did Cannon -- that on paper, purely from a numbers perspective, Student Council was officially "faster" than just about everyone in that race. I didn't even handicap the race beforehand because I wasn't playing it, so I can't say how I would have felt beforehand.

But it's not like Student Council was some nag that happened to run the race of his life, and one that was way out of line with other races he had run. According to TG, Student Council was basically the second fastest horse in the race, and faster than Lava Man's last two races.

I don't think Tiago would have necessarily beat Student Council.

And as for watching it, I don't play Del Mar anyway, but I watch most of the races afterwards -- and I haven't really had a problem watching it. I love horse racing. Period.

However, I haven't had a better time watching racing anywhere than I have watching Arlington this meet, so I guess my answer would be, yes, I do enjoy watching it.

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

If the race had not been on poly, hopefully a few better horses would have run in it.

Ps -- amazing, I've never seen anyone redboard the entry box in such a way before.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

B, the surface blows. JMO.

another perceptive remark to add to the ever growing list.

its sucks.
its a joke.
its an eyesore.
it blows.

you poly bashers really can make an argument.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

another perceptive remark to add to the ever growing list.

its sucks.
its a joke.
its an eyesore.
it blows.

you poly bashers really can make an argument.

Stop making me laugh...

I don't like the fact that it's slowing horses down when they're bred to be fast. It just doesn't make much sense to me. I'm all for a safer surface, but come on now... does it really have to slow them down like that?

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

I see your point, but the fact still remains that it was run probably an average of 7 seconds slower than it ever has been. That's kind of scary... why would we want to change racing in that kind of manner?

what is scary about it? its just a time.

what should the time have been? what is the optimum time for a 10F race on poly in your opinion?

if its too slow why can't I also make the claim that 2:02 is too slow and claim that the dirt tracks be sped up? why not 1:59 or 1:57? Lets make it a speedway.

when you go to a Nascar race do you care about the elapsed time or who the winner was and how the race was ran? I don't know but I'm asking because I think the time is irrelevant.

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

Stop making me laugh...

I don't like the fact that it's slowing horses down when they're bred to be fast. It just doesn't make much sense to me. I'm all for a safer surface, but come on now... does it really have to slow them down like that?

it still takes fast horses to run 2:07 for 10 furlongs on the Del Mar poly at this time. Did Student Council suddenly become a slow horse overnight at DelMar after basically having set a track record at Churchill in his last start?

its just a different measuring stick.

what do you think the time would be for 10K claimers to run 10F at Delmar right now?

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

what is scary about it? its just a time.

what should the time have been? what is the optimum time for a 10F race on poly in your opinion?

if its too slow why can't I also make the claim that 2:02 is too slow and claim that the dirt tracks be sped up? why not 1:59 or 1:57? Lets make it a speedway.

when you go to a Nascar race do you care about the elapsed time or who the winner was and how the race was ran? I don't know but I'm asking because I think the time is irrelevant.

NASCAR is different because of cautions, etc. but yes, people do look at lap times and it is important.

I think that since poly was being advertised as a dirt alternative, then it should probably compare to dirt, don't you?

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

So Brian, your point is that Student Council is a deserving, $1 million dollar Grade 1 winner. DaHoss feels otherwise.

I happen to agree with Hossy and feel there is no way student council would be the pac classic winner if the race had not been on poly. It was an terribly weak race with a bunch of nobodys and Lava Man. If the race had not been on poly, hopefully a few better horses would have run in it, and there is no way student council wins. If the race had not been on poly, tiago would have run, and i feel would have crushed student council. (just mentioning tiago.. but I feel a handful of horses would have crushed SC) Student Council will be lucky to finish 5th or 6th in a Grade 1 on the dirt ever.

Therefore, the reason Student Council is a Grade one winner ..... Ding Ding! Polytrack!


So, on to a different point. Do you really like this poly crap and the blazing fast times they are running on it? I cant even watch that ****. Bring on a 385lb stripper.

everyone keeps saying it was such a weak bunch and that there is no way Student Council was a deserving winner. He had just equalled a Churchill downs track record in his prior start. What else must a horse do to give you the impression that he might be ready to win a stakes race?
No one has given me the name of a more deserving winner in that field. I can accept someone saying Lava Man or perhaps Awesome Gem, the rest are eyesores that don't belong winning a GR1 race either. People betting Lava Man in that race were betting more with their hearts than their brains.

name a horse in that race that was coming off of a sharp performance that would indicate a good effort was expected. I came up with three names in my prerace analysis, Awesome Gem, Student Council, and Sun Boat in that order.

tell me how you ranked that field prior to the race. Seriously, did you have Student Council way down at the bottom of that group having no shot whatsoever? Even if you did, having now read what has been posted regarding how sharp Student Council was going in to the race, how would you rank them after the race? you seriously feel he was moved way up because of the poly?

[ArlJim78]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

NASCAR is different because of cautions, etc. but yes, people do look at lap times and it is important.

I think that since poly was being advertised as a dirt alternative, then it should probably compare to dirt, don't you?

it is a dirt alternative and it does compare. at Del Mar right now it is a bit slower compared to dirt.

i'm sure that the lap times in Nascar are important when comparing against others in the same field on the same track on the same day even. do they compare lap times on one track in one part of the country to those in another? i'll bet they don't because the courses have to be slightly different and what really matters is what is happening within the race relative to the other cars and not to times on other courses.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

everyone keeps saying it was such a weak bunch and that there is no way Student Council was a deserving winner. He had just equalled a Churchill downs track record in his prior start. What else must a horse do to give you the impression that he might be ready to win a stakes race?
No one has given me the name of a more deserving winner in that field. I can accept someone saying Lava Man or perhaps Awesome Gem, the rest are eyesores that don't belong winning a GR1 race either. People betting Lava Man in that race were betting more with their hearts than their brains.

name a horse in that race that was coming off of a sharp performance that would indicate a good effort was expected. I came up with three names in my prerace analysis, Awesome Gem, Student Council, and Sun Boat in that order.

tell me how you ranked that field prior to the race. Seriously, did you have Student Council way down at the bottom of that group having no shot whatsoever? Even if you did, having now read what has been posted regarding how sharp Student Council was going in to the race, how would you rank them after the race? you seriously feel he was moved way up because of the poly?

i guess you are correct. Honestly, that field sucked so much I didnt think any horse should have had a shot. I liked Tiago, but he didnt run, because his trainer hates they way the poly plays in the afternoon.

You are right, in a field as shitty as that was, Student Council isnt the biggest surprise around. That should have been a O/C $100,000 race, not a prestigious Grade 1. I guess that is what bugs me!

[boswd]

Originally Posted by Antitrust32

i guess you are correct. Honestly, that field sucked so much I didnt think any horse should have had a shot. I liked Tiago, but he didnt run, because his trainer hates they way the poly plays in the afternoon.

You are right, in a field as shitty as that was, Student Council isnt the biggest surprise around. That should have been a O/C $100,000 race, not a prestigious Grade 1. I guess that is what bugs me!

The sad part about this is we are going to get the same crappy field for The Travers.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

it is a dirt alternative and it does compare. at Del Mar right now it is a bit slower compared to dirt.

i'm sure that the lap times in Nascar are important when comparing against others in the same field on the same track on the same day even. do they compare lap times on one track in one part of the country to those in another? i'll bet they don't because the courses have to be slightly different and what really matters is what is happening within the race relative to the other cars and not to times on other courses.

I really don't think there is any appropriate way to compare NASCAR and horseracing. Hate to be repetitive, but apples and oranges.

I don't agree with you that poly is a dirt alternative. I think that synthetic surfaces are in a league of their own.

[miraja2]

Originally Posted by Cajungator26

I really don't think there is any appropriate way to compare NASCAR and horseracing. Hate to be repetitive, but apples and oranges.

I don't agree with you that poly is a dirt alternative. I think that synthetic surfaces are in a league of their own.

What about this comparison:
NASCAR sucks and horseracing doesn't.

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by boswd

The sad part about this is we are going to get the same crappy field for The Travers.

At least Street Sense is a proven champion. (I guess you can say the same about Lava Man... but he may be on the way down, where Street Sense is on top of his game). Grasshopper is a horse with a big potential IMO and Sightseeing and CP West are good second tier 3yo's.

Sucks that the only good horses out there today are 3yo's and they are ducking one of the most historic races in the world. What a matchup it would have been to see Street Sense, Curlin, Any Given, Rags to Riches, Hard Spun, hell even throw in Tiago, NObiz and CP West, Sightseeing, and Grasshopper.

I guess a good horse race is too much to ask for these days unless it is the Breeders Cup or Triple Crown.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by miraja2

What about this comparison:
NASCAR sucks and horseracing doesn't.

I love both, but I realize I'm in the minority on this forum. LMAO

[Antitrust32]

Originally Posted by ArlJim78

it is a dirt alternative and it does compare. at Del Mar right now it is a bit slower compared to dirt.

i'm sure that the lap times in Nascar are important when comparing against others in the same field on the same track on the same day even. do they compare lap times on one track in one part of the country to those in another? i'll bet they don't because the courses have to be slightly different and what really matters is what is happening within the race relative to the other cars and not to times on other courses.

A BIT slower!! understatement of the year. 2:07 compared to the 2 flats of the past equals about 35 lengths slower.

[Cannon Shell]

I told Steve this morning that they were considering a new class of races

The optional claiming/Grade 1.

The claimers can run for the purse but dont get blacktype if they win because they are entered for a claiming price. The stakes horses are just running for the Blacktype but no purse money because the blacktype is so much more valuble than the purse anyway. It is a win-win.