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#1
11-15-2021, 05:34 AM
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Here's another piece from TG.. Sire Profile (TGI = Thoro-Graph Index, average fig of progeny by sire at age 2, 3, 4, 5+). Blame progeny keep improving with age (15.5, 11.25, 9.5. 9.25) and this gelding is late in his 4yo year, about to turn 5. 
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All ambitions are lawful except those which climb upward on the miseries or credulities of mankind. ~ Joseph Conrad A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right. ~ Thomas Paine Don't let anyone tell you that your dreams can't come true. They are only afraid that theirs won't and yours will. ~ Robert Evans The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. ~ George Orwell, 1984. 
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#2
11-15-2021, 05:36 AM
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Here's Mandate's full PP's as well.. One interesting side note to the effort that hasn't been discussed is that it came without Lasix, his first start ever without it.
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All ambitions are lawful except those which climb upward on the miseries or credulities of mankind. ~ Joseph Conrad A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right. ~ Thomas Paine Don't let anyone tell you that your dreams can't come true. They are only afraid that theirs won't and yours will. ~ Robert Evans The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. ~ George Orwell, 1984.
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#3
11-15-2021, 06:05 AM
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WO Autumn S (G2): Mighty Heart 91 (Dramedy) J. Carroll/P. Husbands
AQU Winter Memories S: Plum Ali 88 (First Samurai) C. Clement/M. Franco DMR Bob Hope S (G3): Messier - (Empire Maker) B. Baffert/F. Prat HAW Lightning Jet S: W W Cookie Monster - (Ghaaleb) S. Becker/V. Santiago
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All ambitions are lawful except those which climb upward on the miseries or credulities of mankind. ~ Joseph Conrad A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right. ~ Thomas Paine Don't let anyone tell you that your dreams can't come true. They are only afraid that theirs won't and yours will. ~ Robert Evans The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. ~ George Orwell, 1984.
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#4
11-15-2021, 06:50 AM
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Steve, have a heart. Cheating happens. The first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem. That normally happens after you hit rock bottom, like when your wife forgets to buy the Baileys Irish Cream for your morning coffee and you berate her for an hour(not that I have ever done that) or when some ridiculous horse freaks not just wins but runs extraordinary.
Last edited by freddymo : 11-15-2021 at 07:06 AM.
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#6
11-15-2021, 07:48 AM
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I’m not saying it was something undetectable but he was about as impossible a horse going in as I have ever seen. 15 years ago he would’ve been 200-1. Even Aragona had him 50-1 ML and he rarely does that.
Worth noting who the owner is. Never heard of the trainer but the owner doesn’t exactly use hay and oats guys in Canada. All in all I think the course was the reason he won. But that was some kind of move up for a horse who struggled in claiming races not too long ago.
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#7
11-15-2021, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
__________________
All ambitions are lawful except those which climb upward on the miseries or credulities of mankind. ~ Joseph Conrad A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right. ~ Thomas Paine Don't let anyone tell you that your dreams can't come true. They are only afraid that theirs won't and yours will. ~ Robert Evans The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. ~ George Orwell, 1984.
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#8
11-15-2021, 08:02 AM
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While I can be two sheets into the wind regularly, that sheet story really told the tale of that tail
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#9
11-15-2021, 08:27 AM
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Maybe he freaked on a soft turf. It certainly wouldn't be the first time that has happened. His three prior races on courses listed as good weren't strong, even arguably worse than his firm turf efforts, but a softer course like the one on Saturday may well have been much different and to his liking. Regardless, this is an inexplicable effort. To each their own, but I don't believe there is any logical handicapping argument for him, even after the race. Doesn't mean anything nefarious happened. Sometimes racing produces weird results. Sometimes late season turf courses are friendlier to different horses than summertime courses. Who knows.
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Just more nebulous nonsense from BBB
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#10
11-15-2021, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
__________________
All ambitions are lawful except those which climb upward on the miseries or credulities of mankind. ~ Joseph Conrad A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right. ~ Thomas Paine Don't let anyone tell you that your dreams can't come true. They are only afraid that theirs won't and yours will. ~ Robert Evans The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. ~ George Orwell, 1984.
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#11
11-15-2021, 09:07 AM
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Freddy, can you help here?
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Just more nebulous nonsense from BBB
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#12
11-15-2021, 10:27 AM
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Interesting conversation. I don't know anything about the race or the trainer and everything I've learned has come from this thread. I think good arguments have been made on both sides. The result was completely unforseeable. That winner may not have been my selection to win even if no other horse was entered. There was absolutely nothing to indicate a performance like that was even possible. When you start looking for reasons why it happened, the soft turf seems like a good one. Something nefarious seems no less like a good reason. Without knowing anything about the individuals involved, I wouldn't make the claim or insinuation that something was done that wasn't on the up and up. I do, however, see how anyone could come to that conclusion and I definitely wouldn't argue with them and tell them they are wrong.
In the end, isn't that the bigger issue? As is the case with so many things, perception often becomes reality. Some people constantly bring up guys like Baffert and Cox and talk about how they cheat and ruin the sport. I counter that I have believed from the start and still do believe that cheating is a regular part of the game so when I get beat by something or someone that I feel like was unfair, I chalk it up to acceptable risk. The perception of the public when it comes to horse racing is that cheating is a regular part of the game. That's why I appreciate the Bob Baffert's of the world. At least they are more apparent with what they do. An old saying is that the enemy you know is better than the one you don't know.
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The real horses of the year (1986-2020) Manila, Java Gold, Alysheba, Sunday Silence, Go for Wand, In Excess, Paseana, Kotashaan, Holy Bull, Cigar, Alphabet Soup, Formal Gold, Skip Away, Artax, Tiznow, Point Given, Azeri, Candy Ride, Smarty Jones, Ghostzapper, Invasor, Curlin, Zenyatta, Zenyatta, Goldikova, Havre de Grace, Wise Dan, Wise Dan, California Chrome, American Pharoah, Arrogate, Gun Runner, Accelerate, Maximum Security, Gamine
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#13
11-15-2021, 10:49 AM
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Not sure why every time a unexpected result happens is always stated it’s because of cheating. This kind of result happens from time to time. That’s racing and impossible horses can win especially on turf. The horses last race was decent and there were no world beaters in the field. Whether soft turf, distance or something else who knows. Nothing on form shows anything but that’s not a first for that.
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#14
11-15-2021, 11:22 AM
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This was strange because it was a decent field and nothing the horse had ever done came close to this performance. I've been following and betting for 25 years and can't ever recall a horse run 10th in a 25k claimer in August and turn around and win a stake in November. If you follow the NYRA circuit you know Mandate. This was not the same Mandate we had seen for years. He really ran on Saturday and was much the best. I think the course, which had taken a bunch of rain not long before is the reason. But I also can't fault anyone for thinking something nefarious is the explanation. The reality is the sport has a bad perception right now by those that follow it like we do and by those that don't. Some of it is undeserved...but then again, some of it is absolutely deserved. Maybe the sport as a whole should look inward and try and change that.
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