5/4 (CD): 145th Kentucky Derby Day

[casp0555]

My two cents on this will not matter or change one thing so Im out of the debate. This Derby and the call will continue to be debated forever or so it will seem....the fact is, and we as participants and lovers of this sport, should be divinely grateful that there was not a pileup of human and horse flesh coming out of that turn. An event like that would have not only been catastrophic for the athletes but for the sport itself.

Thank whoever you want but be grateful for the safe outcome of 143. Money can be replaced, egos restored, and new athletes will come along that will wow and entertain us. Nothing can bring back a fatality or permanent injury, horse or human.

Sorry to interrupt....

[philcski]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

A screenshot, out of context with no benefit of a head on proves nothing. Horses race in tight daily. If the horse (MS) shied toward the crowd that purportedly spooked him ( makes no sense) , and a speed horse (WoW) is fading outside, what exactly is the jock supposed to do?

These are the facts:
1. There was NO Stewards Inquiry
2. Neither of the 2 horses that claimed foul were ever fouled

It’s the most ridiculous takedown I’ve ever seen. If you want to give him days for the ride that’s one thing. Placing clearly the best, and unquestionably the winning horse 17th serves no one, and is another black eye for the sport.

The always great Scott Carson posted the most definitive video. If this isn't a foul... I don't know what is.

https://twitter.com/CarsoniPH/status...28240144457730

Originally Posted by casp0555

My two cents on this will not matter or change one thing so Im out of the debate. This Derby and the call will continue to be debated forever or so it will seem....the fact is, and we as participants and lovers of this sport, should be divinely grateful that there was not a pileup of human and horse flesh coming out of that turn. An event like that would have not only been catastrophic for the athletes but for the sport itself.

Thank whoever you want but be grateful for the safe outcome of 143. Money can be replaced, egos restored, and new athletes will come along that will wow and entertain us. Nothing can bring back a fatality or permanent injury, horse or human.

Sorry to interrupt....

Well said.

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by philcski

The always great Scott Carson posted the most definitive video. If this isn't a foul... I don't know what is.

https://twitter.com/CarsoniPH/status...28240144457730



Well said.

Neither War of Will nor Long Range Toddy was winning this race, with or without interference.

The most impeded horse, War of Will never filed an objection. The Same Stewards being lauded on this board for their takedown are the same Stewards that completely missed it real time and never even filed an inquiry to look at it. The 2 horses that filed the objection were never fouled.

I get it. It certainly appears that Saez was momentarily not in control of his mount. You wanna give him days for this? I'm in complete agreement. But to put up an also-ran as a Kentucky Derby Champion - purely punitively- instead of keeping clearly best horse and eventual winner up is mind-numbing inexplicable

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

Neither War of Will nor Long Range Toddy was winning this race, with or without interference.

The most impeded horse, War of Will never filed an objection. The Same Stewards being lauded on this board for their takedown are the same Stewards that completely missed it real time and never even filed an inquiry to look at it. The 2 horses that filed the objection were never fouled.

I get it. It certainly appears that Saez was momentarily not in control of his mount. You wanna give him days for this? I'm in complete agreement. But to put up an also-ran as a Kentucky Derby Champion - purely punitively- instead of keeping clearly best horse and eventual winner up is mind-numbing inexplicable

You don’t think it’s possible either one would have been 4th without the interference?

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by Dahoss

You don’t think it’s possible either one would have been 4th without the interference?

Day 1 of Steward Training 101 they teach you that if you take down the best horse in the race, you do so only because it clearly affected another's opportunity to win, Regardless of who finishes 4th, 5th, or 17th. There is absolutely no way on earth that distinction can be made at the point of call in the race the infraction occurred.

Without interference, would Country House have won, finished 2nd, 3rd, or 4th?

that's a Huge No for me.

But because these Stewards ( who, again, were asleep at the switch) decided to punish the horse, its owners, trainer, etc. rather than the jockey who failed to maintain a hold of his mount, we have an also-ran masquerading as a champion.

How some here can reconcile that, I don't get. It makes a mockery of the sport.

[Dahoss]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

Day 1 of Steward Training 101 they teach you that if you take down the best horse in the race, you do so only because it clearly affected another's opportunity to win, Regardless of who finishes 4th, 5th, or 17th. There is absolutely no way on earth that distinction can be made at the point of call in the race the infraction occurred.

Without interference, would Country House have won, finished 2nd, 3rd, or 4th?

that's a Huge No for me.

But because these Stewards ( who, again, were asleep at the switch) decided to punish the horse, its owners, trainer, etc. rather than the jockey who failed to maintain a hold of his mount, we have an also-ran masquerading as a champion.

How some here can reconcile that, I don't get. It makes a mockery of the sport.

We’re not talking about Country House. He wasn’t fouled.

Let’s get real basic. Do you think Maximum Security fouled War of Will and Long Range Toddy when he came out?

[tjfla]

My biggest problem is the 20 was placed #1 even tho had NOTHING to do with any of this.

I just hope that from here on out EVERY race the stewards follow the "RULE" horses who touch another horse coming out of the gate OR cuts in front of another horse to get to the front are DQ. If u touch legs with another horse they go back and check

I have been a horse racing fan and bettor for 20 years and will NEVER bet another race. Horses touch/bang/cut each other off all the time its a part of the race

[hurricanefrank]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

Day 1 of Steward Training 101 they teach you that if you take down the best horse in the race, you do so only because it clearly affected another's opportunity to win, Regardless of who finishes 4th, 5th, or 17th. There is absolutely no way on earth that distinction can be made at the point of call in the race the infraction occurred.

Without interference, would Country House have won, finished 2nd, 3rd, or 4th?

that's a Huge No for me.

But because these Stewards ( who, again, were asleep at the switch) decided to punish the horse, its owners, trainer, etc. rather than the jockey who failed to maintain a hold of his mount, we have an also-ran masquerading as a champion.

How some here can reconcile that, I don't get. It makes a mockery of the sport.

I could not disagree more. A mockery of the sport occurs when rules aren't followed. Country House was mere a benefactor of the decision. How do you know War of the Will would not have won or placed or showed? Give Mark Casse a listen. Or Tyler G. A foul occurred. Whether its the Derby or 12.5 claimer on Thursday afternoon should make no difference. A rule is a rule and should be applied even handedly. Now if you want to take on the Ky stewards for how they handled the situation, that's a different kettle of fish,

[Kitan]

Originally Posted by hurricanefrank

I could not disagree more. A mockery of the sport occurs when rules aren't followed. Country House was mere a benefactor of the decision. How do you know War of the Will would not have won or placed or showed? Give Mark Casse a listen. Or Tyler G. A foul occurred. Whether its the Derby or 12.5 claimer on Thursday afternoon should make no difference. A rule is a rule and should be applied even handedly. Now if you want to take on the Ky stewards for how they handled the situation, that's a different kettle of fish,

Maybe the question should be why is that the rule in the first place? North American rules in this respect are dissimilar to those of other racing jurisdictions, which have their own individual quirks but are pretty consistent for DQs. Hell, what is a foul in one state is not in another, and vice versa. This DQ is a perfect example of why the rules need changing. What we had was a young horse drifting on the turn for whatever reason (noise, glare, uneven surface, etc), possibly compromising the chances of the 1 (came up empty; 18 and 21 were done). But, in the end who did the DQ benefit? It didn’t benefit the connections of the horses interfered with (the reason why Gaffalione said they didn’t lodge an objection). It didn’t benefit those that bet the 1 or 18. It sure didn’t benefit the horse who was best on the day nor those that bet him (in North America). It only benefitted the bettors and connections of horses that had fair chances to but couldn’t beat the winner.

One of the reasons the rules in other jurisdictions are set as such is to protect the bettors. In this case, why should someone who handicapped and bet the race perfectly be punished? Why should those who had fair chances to win be rewarded? Neither are beneficial to those that bet on the affected runners. Full disclosure, at the start of the card I bet the 7 overseas because I got 9-1 odds...I’m just angry because the DQ cost me on the exotics and the 20 was my original pick before I decided he wasn’t good enough to win, which was correct—so I’m right but I still lose. My bet still got paid as if it was a winner, because 1) what I just mentioned above, and 2) that horse would never have come down in their (or any other major) jurisdiction (rather, jockey likely suspended even if it maybe wasn’t his fault). Sometimes the best horses don’t win for whatever reason, whether it be a bad trip or fair and square. The 20 had every chance to be the deserved winner. Maybe I’m sour because it’s the same scenario for me in the Oaks...9 ranged up on the outside for a huge score but got turned back by the winner who was best on the day. My horse had her chance but was second best. Same scenario happened in the Derby. The 20 had his chance to win and didn’t. He still wasn’t winning even if the 1 or 18 weren’t interfered with. Same with the 13 and the 5 and the rest that finished with a cheque, they weren’t finishing any higher. So, maybe “rules are rules”, but those rules need to be re-looked at, because in situations like this they don’t benefit the connections or bettors—those who are the heart and soul of the game.

[hurricanefrank]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

Day 1 of Steward Training 101 they teach you that if you take down the best horse in the race, you do so only because it clearly affected another's opportunity to win, Regardless of who finishes 4th, 5th, or 17th. There is absolutely no way on earth that distinction can be made at the point of call in the race the infraction occurred.

Without interference, would Country House have won, finished 2nd, 3rd, or 4th?

that's a Huge No for me.

But because these Stewards ( who, again, were asleep at the switch) decided to punish the horse, its owners, trainer, etc. rather than the jockey who failed to maintain a hold of his mount, we have an also-ran masquerading as a champion.

How some here can reconcile that, I don't get. It makes a mockery of the sport.

I could not disagree more. A mockery of the sport occurs when rules aren't followed. Country House was a mere benefactor of the decision. How do you know War of the Will would not have won or placed or showed? Give Mark Casse a listen. Or Tyler G. A foul occurred. Whether its the Derby or 12.5 claimer on Thursday afternoon should make no difference. A rule is a rule and should be applied even handedly. Now if you want to take on the Ky stewards for how they handled the situation, that's a different kettle of fish,

[jms62]

Originally Posted by philcski

The always great Scott Carson posted the most definitive video. If this isn't a foul... I don't know what is.

https://twitter.com/CarsoniPH/status...28240144457730



Well said.

Scott's video clearly put me in the camp of it was a valid DQ Call and a Gutsy call by the Stewards.

[moses]

Originally Posted by philcski

The always great Scott Carson posted the most definitive video. If this isn't a foul... I don't know what is.

https://twitter.com/CarsoniPH/status...28240144457730



Well said.

That video shows it pretty clearly. It’s still unfortunate it happened...but oh well.

Bill Mott owes Jason Servis, though. Not only did the foul result in Country House getting placed first but that video shows the foul pushed a whole bunch of horses wide and created a clear lane for Tacitus who was just picking up a full head of steam.