Weekend Stakes Beyers

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by cakes44

This thread could have been epic. Now it's just confusing as hell for anyone reading it for the first time.

The unicorn debate just needs to be kickstarted with some actual examples.

A fairly obvious and recent unicorn was Beholder in last year's Pacific Classic. She had 3 races under her belt, averaging a 98 Beyer while winning handily, then uncorks a 114 BSF romping home in her only 10f while facing males.

Was she "pushed" to run faster? Or is the figure itself a bit of a sham?

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

The unicorn debate just needs to be kickstarted with some actual examples.

A fairly obvious and recent unicorn was Beholder in last year's Pacific Classic. She had 3 races under her belt, averaging a 98 Beyer while winning handily, then uncorks a 114 BSF romping home in her only 10f while facing males.

Was she "pushed" to run faster? Or is the figure itself a bit of a sham?

What about her race against Stellar Wind? That was the race, unlike the Pacific Classic you mentioned, where she actually needed to run faster ( I won't even use this year's Pacific Classic ). Interestingly enough, she is one of those supposed Unicorns, in that she has never ( save the 2015 Pacific Classic ) been particularly fast, and some of her fans foolishly said she only ran as fast as she had to.

But you know these supposed Unicorns don't really exist. You just want King Glorious to post more for your own perverse entertainment ( and mine as well ).

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

But you know these supposed Unicorns don't really exist. You just want King Glorious to post more for your own perverse entertainment ( and mine as well ).

I find it very difficult to find these unicorns in the first place. Firstly, the horse has to be a fairly regular winner despite slow speed figures, and secondly it has to step up to the top level and then put up significantly higher figures. Most often, such horses turn out to be pumpkins and simply get exposed.

However, I found one horse who truly fits the Unicorn Model, running only with just enough to win in the majority of its races, and then posting career numbers in its toughest assignments.

That, you no doubt already realize, was Zenyatta, who breeched the 110+ mark in both her BC Classic efforts altering averaging 103 or so in her other races.

Of course, if she had only really been a unicorn she would have won the 2010 Classic by a horn, rather than lost by a head.

[Alabama Stakes]

You'll never get those guys to admit they were wrong about ZENYATTA . They still think easy goer was better than Sunday Silence and that Alydar was better than Affirmed. When Songbird runs away in the distaff in fast time, they will be saying, well she only did it once.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by Alabama Stakes

You'll never get those guys to admit they were wrong about ZENYATTA .

To be fair, losing to Blame, a second tier track stalwart, was pretty weak no matter how fast the Beyer was.

They still think easy goer was better than Sunday Silence

Neither could beat Criminal Type.

When Songbird runs away in the distaff in fast time, they will be saying, well she only did it once.

Songbird still has time to mature (e.g., California Chrome, Tepin), and be faster because of that, rather than not be challenged enough by her peers like some grade school prodigy having to take courses at UCLA to keep interested in schoolwork.

[Indian Charlie]

Originally Posted by Alabama Stakes

You'll never get those guys to admit they were wrong about ZENYATTA

.

Why would you have them admit they are wrong when they aren't? You might as well have them admit to being five year old girls.

Zenyatta is the single most overrated horse I've seen in my thirtyish years watching.

Originally Posted by Alabama Stakes

They still think easy goer was better than Sunday Silence.

Sunday Silence bested EG 3-1 but one of those (the Preakness) could easily have gone the other way. It is hardly definitive that either was better than the other. By the way, I'd much rather have PVal as a rider than Pat Day.

Originally Posted by Alabama Stakes

When Songbird runs away in the distaff in fast time, they will be saying, well she only did it once.

Historically speaking, Beholder is hardly one of the greats, so your scenario could easily happen. The Distaff is the race this year that I'd be least surprised to see a major upset in. I think the top runners in there are all vulnerable.

[Sightseek]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

.

Why would you have them admit they are wrong when they aren't? You might as well have them admit to being five year old girls.

Zenyatta is the single most overrated horse I've seen in my thirtyish years watching.




Sunday Silence bested EG 3-1 but one of those (the Preakness) could easily have gone the other way. It is hardly definitive that either was better than the other. By the way, I'd much rather have PVal as a rider than Pat Day.




Historically speaking, Beholder is hardly one of the greats, so your scenario could easily happen. The Distaff is the race this year that I'd be least surprised to see a major upset in. I think the top runners in there are all vulnerable.

I thought you had a gf?


How is Stellar Wind vulnerable?

[King Glorious]

Curious revisit this subject. My opinion is that when asked to go all out, Songbird went faster than she ever has. Just wasn't good enough to beat Beholder.

Maybe the discussion before should have been not that they will run faster if asked but rather, if allowed to.

[blackthroatedwind]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

I find it very difficult to find these unicorns in the first place. Firstly, the horse has to be a fairly regular winner despite slow speed figures, and secondly it has to step up to the top level and then put up significantly higher figures. Most often, such horses turn out to be pumpkins and simply get exposed.

However, I found one horse who truly fits the Unicorn Model, running only with just enough to win in the majority of its races, and then posting career numbers in its toughest assignments.

That, you no doubt already realize, was Zenyatta, who breeched the 110+ mark in both her BC Classic efforts altering averaging 103 or so in her other races.

Of course, if she had only really been a unicorn she would have won the 2010 Classic by a horn, rather than lost by a head.

Right. People always talk about these horses that only do what they have to in order to win...yet there are no examples ( except, as you pointed out, one that lost....who's big fig, by the way, was the result of a deep closer taking advantage of a monster pace that collapsed ).

I'll give you a good one...Bernardini. He was actually legitimately fast. But, he won many races so easily that people said he could go faster if he had to. Ultimately, he couldn't ( though his loss in the BC was also the result of a premature move into a fast pace ). He's like the anti-Zenyatta....he actually had a legitimate excuse for losing the BC Classic. He also ran a whole slew of fast races.

Back to chasing unicorns.