Biggest gap between the best horse in a crop and the rest

Indian Charlie · #1 04-24-2007, 04:10 PM

As DrugS was enthralling me yet again about how Rose didnt give afleet alex one of the dumbest rides in derby history, it occurred to me that in the last 20-30 years, it's possible that Afleet Alex might be the biggest standout in a single crop.

Now, I'm not saying that Afleet Alex is the best horse of the last 3 decades, but can anyone find an example of a horse that is that much better than the next best horse in their crop, compared to alex vs the rest of his junky crop?

slotdirt · #2 04-24-2007, 04:16 PM

Some have said Flower Alley would have beat Afleet Alex later in 2005. I think they're nuts.

Indian Charlie · #3 04-24-2007, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slotdirt

Some have said Flower Alley would have beat Afleet Alex later in 2005. I think they're nuts.

holy giacamo! who in their right mind would have said that?

Kasept · #4 04-24-2007, 04:21 PM

Point Given.. Swale..(?) Slew.. Native Dancer.. War Admiral..

Indian Charlie · #5 04-24-2007, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasept

Point Given.. Swale..(?) Slew.. Native Dancer.. War Admiral..

point given at least had congaree in his crop. on both of their best days, up to 9f, i'd take congaree.

native dancer and war admiral were considerably more than 30 years ago.

swale's crop had precisionist, gate dancer, greinton, al mamoon, etc.
i'm not sure swale was even the best horse in the crop, though maybe at the time of the triple crown he was!

i'll give you slew, that one is pretty obvious, but cutting it close for the 30 year mark.

blackthroatedwind · #6 04-24-2007, 04:34 PM

Bellamy Road.

blackthroatedwind · #7 04-24-2007, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasept

Point Given.. Swale..(?) Slew.. Native Dancer.. War Admiral..

Swale?

He had Dr. Carter, Devil's Bag, Slew o' Gold and even Time for a Change.

philcski · #8 04-24-2007, 04:39 PM

Smarty Jones was so much better than everyone in that crop it was ridiculous.

The fact that he didn't win the Triple Crown proves how difficult it really is...

Kasept · #9 04-24-2007, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Swale?

He had Dr. Carter, Devil's Bag, Slew o' Gold and even Time for a Change.

I liked Swale.. Was just becoming a race fan at the time.

blackthroatedwind · #10 04-24-2007, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasept

I liked Swale.. Was just becoming a race fan at the time.

He was a nice horse....and at best about fourth or fifth best of his crop. Hell, as a 2YO Shuttle Jet used to give him all he could handle.

Did you ever read the chart of his Belmont win? I believe it said something like " closed off his own fractions ".

King Glorious · #11 04-24-2007, 04:48 PM

My nominees would be (from 1986 to present):
Arazi (1992) over AP Indy
Holy Bull (1994) over Tabasco Cat
Thunder Gulch (1995) over Serena's Song
Point Given (2001) over ????

My rankings:
1. Point Given
2. Arazi
3. Thunder Gulch
4. Holy Bull

smuthg · #12 04-24-2007, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philcski

Smarty Jones was so much better than everyone in that crop it was ridiculous.

The fact that he didn't win the Triple Crown proves how difficult it really is...

I agree. I think it was Watchmaker who said, the true testament to Smarty Jones' talent (not going to use the "G" word) was the fact that he could carry Stewart Elliot to wins in the Derby and Preakness.

blackthroatedwind · #13 04-24-2007, 04:49 PM

And, by the way, on the subject of this thread, it is preposterous to even suggest that horses that never raced past early June of their 3YO seasons ( and this includes Smarty Jones and Afleet Alex ) were distanced from their respective generations. Without knowing if they progressed, or how they stacked up against others in their generations who developed later, it is unfair to place them significantly ahead of their peers.

Take a look at Slew o' Gold, who obviously proved best of his generation, and tell me he was the best horse in early June when Caveat was kicking his azz in the Belmont.

alysheba4 · #14 04-24-2007, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasept

Point Given.. Swale..(?) Slew.. Native Dancer.. War Admiral..

.......swale, no sir the late great gate dancer punched him in the neck

Indian Charlie · #15 04-24-2007, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious

My nominees would be (from 1986 to present):
Arazi (1992) over AP Indy
Holy Bull (1994) over Tabasco Cat
Thunder Gulch (1995) over Serena's Song
Point Given (2001) over ????

My rankings:
1. Point Given
2. Arazi
3. Thunder Gulch
4. Holy Bull

wow. i love arazi too, but there was no way he was tons better than ap indy, if at all.

point given had congaree.

i'm not sold on thunder gulch even being best in his crop. and the holy bull crop was quite nice

blackthroatedwind · #16 04-24-2007, 04:53 PM

Thunder Gulch won a war of attrition. He was not that good.

parsixfarms · #17 04-24-2007, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Glorious

My nominees would be (from 1986 to present):
Arazi (1992) over AP Indy
Holy Bull (1994) over Tabasco Cat
Thunder Gulch (1995) over Serena's Song
Point Given (2001) over ????

My rankings:
1. Point Given
2. Arazi
3. Thunder Gulch
4. Holy Bull

Arazi over AP Indy, Lure or Paradise Creek??

Thunder Gulch was a nice horse, but let's remember that Timber Country and Afternoon Deelites were also members of this crop, and Thunder Gulch was all out on more than one occasion to beat Suave Prospect. If he was THAT GOOD, I doubt he would have been 24-1 in the Derby.

I think I'd have to look at Spectacular Bid.

Indian Charlie · #18 04-24-2007, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

And, by the way, on the subject of this thread, it is preposterous to even suggest that horses that never raced past early June of their 3YO seasons ( and this includes Smarty Jones and Afleet Alex ) were distanced from their respective generations. Without knowing if they progressed, or how they stacked up against others in their generations who developed later, it is unfair to place them significantly ahead of their peers.

Take a look at Slew o' Gold, who obviously proved best of his generation, and tell me he was the best horse in early June when Caveat was kicking his azz in the Belmont.

yeah, i should have been more specific. i was wondering how long it would take for someone to point out that invasor was in the AA crop.

I should have said that to qualify, it would have to be a horse running in the usa at roughly the time of the triple crown, give or take a few months.

Indian Charlie · #19 04-24-2007, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parsixfarms

Arazi over AP Indy, Lure or Paradise Creek??

Thunder Gulch was a nice horse, but let's remember that Timber Country and Afternoon Deelites were also members of this crop, and Thunder Gulch was all out on more than one occasion to beat Suave Prospect. If he was THAT GOOD, I doubt he would have been 24-1 in the Derby.

I think I'd have to look at Spectacular Bid.

as great at bid was, at least that crop had the very nice horses flying paster, relaunch, coastal and general assembly.

King Glorious · #20 04-24-2007, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

wow. i love arazi too, but there was no way he was tons better than ap indy, if at all.

point given had congaree.

i'm not sold on thunder gulch even being best in his crop. and the holy bull crop was quite nice

I always felt that AP Indy was better but not much better than Bertrando. And I know how much better than Bertrando Arazi was.

I loved Congaree as a horse but I didn't think he showed his best until later. Point Given kicked his ass in the Preakness and then that was Congaree later getting handled again in the Jim Dandy.