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  #1  
Old 04-02-2007, 11:13 AM
jpops757 jpops757 is offline
Sheepshead Bay
 
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Default Lava Man

Did he have an excuse other than the race wasnt in Cal? Has Oneil expressed how much rest and when to expect his return to the track?
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  #2  
Old 04-02-2007, 12:18 PM
robfla robfla is offline
Calder Race Course
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpops757
Did he have an excuse

Of course he did have an excuse!!! The competition was better. I dont buy the shipping theory. It is just that when he ships he faces better opposition.
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  #3  
Old 04-02-2007, 12:33 PM
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Cajungator26 Cajungator26 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robfla
Of course he did have an excuse!!! The competition was better. I dont buy the shipping theory. It is just that when he ships he faces better opposition.
I don't agree with that... he's a documented stall walker. The horse shouldn't ship. I wonder how many times he's going to run up the track before they realize that?
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  #4  
Old 04-02-2007, 01:39 PM
SniperSB23 SniperSB23 is offline
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Sorry but I don't buy the stall walker excuses. Everytime the horse has left California he's run a very good six furlongs and then the lactic acid builds up and he stops running. If he didn't run a step like Discreet Cat in the World Cup then I'd by that there was something wrong with him. I'll leave it to everyone's imaginations as to why the lactic acid never builds up when he runs in California.
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  #5  
Old 04-02-2007, 02:07 PM
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miraja2 miraja2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robfla
I dont buy the shipping theory. It is just that when he ships he faces better opposition.
Wrong.
He runs worse speed figs too. Sometimes when he is shipped horses that he beat easily in SoCal (like Brother Derek) beat him easily elsewhere. He does face tougher competition, but he also just runs poorly when he ships.
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  #6  
Old 04-02-2007, 02:15 PM
robfla robfla is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miraja2
Wrong.
He runs worse speed figs too. Sometimes when he is shipped horses that he beat easily in SoCal (like Brother Derek) beat him easily elsewhere. He does face tougher competition, but he also just runs poorly when he ships.


he runs worse figures because he is over his head. especially against the best turf horses in the WORLD

Heck, Perfect Drift beat him in Cali, so did Rock Hard Ten and Borrego.

Bring the same horse he faced Saturday to California, let THEM ship to him, he still gets trounced.
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  #7  
Old 04-02-2007, 02:33 PM
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miraja2 miraja2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robfla
he runs worse figures because he is over his head. especially against the best turf horses in the WORLD

Heck, Perfect Drift beat him in Cali, so did Rock Hard Ten and Borrego.

Bring the same horse he faced Saturday to California, let THEM ship to him, he still gets trounced.
I'm not saying he would have won that race if it had been run at a SoCal track. I don't think he would. But it is absolutely incorrect to say that this horse runs the same races away from the three SoCal tracks that he runs at them. It isn't really a debatable topic. It is just a fact.
We already had this whole argument in the Dubai Duty Free thread, so I don't want to have it all again.
But he is without question a different horse outside of Cali than he is in Cali. Your suggestion that shipping doesn't affect him at all is laughably incorrect, and anyone that has watched this horse run or knows how to read past performances knows that.
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  #8  
Old 04-02-2007, 02:40 PM
Antitrust32 Antitrust32 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miraja2
I'm not saying he would have won that race if it had been run at a SoCal track. I don't think he would. But it is absolutely incorrect to say that this horse runs the same races away from the three SoCal tracks that he runs at them. It isn't really a debatable topic. It is just a fact.
We already had this whole argument in the Dubai Duty Free thread, so I don't want to have it all again.
But he is without question a different horse outside of Cali than he is in Cali. Your suggestion that shipping doesn't affect him at all is laughably incorrect, and anyone that has watched this horse run or knows how to read past performances knows that.
Do you ever think that its because he doesnt have his way outside california and buckles under those circumstances? also, the medication?

The past two times this horse has run outside his home state, the preview articles in written by turf writers online have raved about how good he looks and how hes been training.. (while he was in Kentucky and Dubai). Then he goes out and doesnt run a lick. I dont think its from shipping or turf writers wouldnt be raving about how hes training in the other regions.
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  #9  
Old 04-02-2007, 02:33 PM
Antitrust32 Antitrust32 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robfla
he runs worse figures because he is over his head. especially against the best turf horses in the WORLD

Heck, Perfect Drift beat him in Cali, so did Rock Hard Ten and Borrego.

Bring the same horse he faced Saturday to California, let THEM ship to him, he still gets trounced.

Definately have to agree with this. GPK and I discussed this after the race. The horses bred oversea's are bred for the turf and bred for distance, they are just much better quality than the US turf horses. The results show in the Breeders Cup turf and Mile also (for the most part). Do you think its coincidence that the US horses won most of the Dirt races in Dubai? no, US horses were bred for the dirt and have better quality (again, for the most part). Even the well bred turf horses that were bred in the US are snatched up by coolmore and the shieks and sent overseas to race (again, there is always an exception).

Lava Man does his job in Cali, and he should be praised for that, but who does he face? Nothing like he's faced in his last two very poor performances outside Cali. I just can't buy that shipping excuse. He's just not good enough.
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  #10  
Old 04-02-2007, 02:40 PM
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miraja2 miraja2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antitrust32
I just can't buy that shipping excuse. He's just not good enough.
You are half right.
He isn't good enough to beat the top grass horses in the world no matter where the race was run. The fact that he was the favorite in this race was insane.
He also couldn't have beaten Invasor and Bernardini in the BCC last year even if the race had been at one of "his" tracks.
So the shipping does not "cause" him to lose.....but it does cause him to run worse than he typically does.
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  #11  
Old 04-02-2007, 03:08 PM
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miraja2 miraja2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robfla
The competition was better. I dont buy the shipping theory. It is just that when he ships he faces better opposition.
Here you said that it is "just" that when he ships he faces better competition. This didn't seem to leave much room for ambiguity. If you don't think that anymore.....okay.
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