Where a horse is born....

[whodey17]

Why does it matter where a horse is born? Shouldn't the blood lines be the most important factor. Who cares if the horse was born in New Jersey, Wisconsin or Kentucky. Heck, you can have a horse with the same bloodlines born in all three states. So my question is, why do people make such a big deal where a horse is born?

[pmayjr]

You're right about bloodlines, but I'm pretty sure Wisconsin, and where I'm from, Minnesota, doesn't have any A.P. Indy babies born and bred in the state. All the good ones seem to be in KY, Florida, Cali, the UK, but not in Minnesota lol.

I was looking at the Midwest sires issue of the DRF that came about a month ago with the Sunday DRFs, and I was shocked to see Minnesota that had a Sire that made the 2 year old sire rankings. His name was Thatsusintheolebean. His sire was El Prado, and he was horse of the year at Canterbury back in the 90s. Eventhough his dad was El Prado, I think he won more on dirt than turf. He died last year, but still had about 20-25 horses that made it to the track last year. In that mix he got enough winners to make the bottom of the list. MINNESOTA REPRESENT LOL!

But that example right there is the reason why in the end, states do matter. Because most states don't get the horses with the big-time bloodlines to be a major player against KY, FL, etc etc etc.

[pointman]

Are you asking where the horse is born or bred? Many states offer stakes races restricted to horses bred in their state for economic incentives. For example, if a horse is bred in New York that horse can run in restricted stakes that offer good purses against competition that is not as good as open competition. I hope that answers the question.

[whodey17]

Originally Posted by pointman

Are you asking where the horse is born or bred? Many states offer stakes races restricted to horses bred in their state for economic incentives. For example, if a horse is bred in New York that horse can run in restricted stakes that offer good purses against competition that is not as good as open competition. I hope that answers the question.

Where they are born. If I lived in Wisconsin and I shipped my mare to KY to be bred to AP Indy and then shipped my mare back to Wisconsin the foal would be a Wisconsin foal but with AP Indy bloodlines.

Good point about the state bred races.

[pointman]

Thanks, have to admit where they are born is beyond my knowledge, although, I am sure others on the site know. I can only guess that states may offer similar incentives to have foals born in their state, but that is just a guess.

[Cajungator26]

I would say it has something to do with the fact that the majority of decent broodmares are kept at the farms in Kentucky (like Mill Ridge, etc.)

[paisjpq]

In kentucky the Bluegrass region is actually a unique geological area...the 30 mile radius of land (approximate) that surrounds Lexington sits on a foundation of underlying limestone and minerals...this creates extremely fertile soil and the grasses in turn provide optimum nutrients (especially calcium) for growing bones in horses and other livestock. It is not by mistake that horse farms are concentrated in this area.

[Cajungator26]

Originally Posted by paisjpq

In kentucky the Bluegrass region is actually a unique geological area...the 30 mile radius of land (approximate) that surrounds Lexington sits on a foundation of underlying limestone and minerals...this creates extremely fertile soil and the grasses in turn provide optimum nutrients (especially calcium) for growing bones in horses and other livestock. It is not by mistake that horse farms are concentrated in this area.

Same goes for Ocala, although the soil here is not as heavily concentrated as the soil in Lexington.

[Scurlogue Champ]

Originally Posted by paisjpq

In kentucky the Bluegrass region is actually a unique geological area...the 30 mile radius of land (approximate) that surrounds Lexington sits on a foundation of underlying limestone and minerals...this creates extremely fertile soil and the grasses in turn provide optimum nutrients (especially calcium) for growing bones in horses and other livestock. It is not by mistake that horse farms are concentrated in this area.

It sure isn't by mistake that the farms are concentrated in this area. At the outset of the Civil war, all of the wealthy horse owners in Virginia, Maryland, and the Carolinas sent their absolute best stock west so they wouldn't be commandeered by the Union/Confederate forces. The railroad went as far west as Lexington.

The war ended up being a much bigger event than they imagined, and what they planned on being a few months, turned into a few years.

So, the horses stayed in Lexington and the breeding industry thrived due to the absolute best stock in America being there. People didn't scout around and after a long and lengthy search land in Lexington and say "Alas, this is the perfect soil to raise thoroughbreds on!"

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by moodwalker

It sure isn't by mistake that the farms are concentrated in this area. At the outset of the Civil war, all of the wealthy horse owners in Virginia, Maryland, and the Carolinas sent their absolute best stock west so they wouldn't be commandeered by the Union/Confederate forces. The railroad went as far west as Lexington.

The war ended up being a much bigger event than they imagined, and what they planned on being a few months, turned into a few years.

So, the horses stayed in Lexington and the breeding industry thrived due to the absolute best stock in America being there. People didn't scout around and after a long and lengthy search land in Lexington and say "Alas, this is the perfect soil to raise thoroughbreds on!"

you are correct of course, and I didn't mean to imply that someone went out on a survey to find the best place to raise a horse...but the quality of the land is why they remained after the war, and why they reamain there to this day.
i believe the region is actually on an endangered resource list (I can't remember the details) due to loss of land for development.

[Scurlogue Champ]

Originally Posted by paisjpq

you are correct of course, and I didn't mean to imply that someone went out on a survey to find the best place to raise a horse...but the quality of the land is why they remained after the war, and why they reamain there to this day.
i believe the region is actually on an endangered resource list (I can't remember the details) due to loss of land for development.

I didn't think you implied that. I was just adding to your assessment.

My apologies if it came off as such.

[SniperSB23]

The funny thing is you always hear about this great Bluegrass in Kentucky yet the horses bred in NY race every two weeks while the KY breds race every 5 to 8 weeks until they get injured. I don't understand why anyone still drops their mares in KY with all the statebred incentives out there in CA, FL, NY, MD, LA, PA, etc.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

The funny thing is you always hear about this great Bluegrass in Kentucky yet the horses bred in NY race every two weeks while the KY breds race every 5 to 8 weeks until they get injured. I don't understand why anyone still drops their mares in KY with all the statebred incentives out there in CA, FL, NY, MD, LA, PA, etc.

Because when you are breeding top quality mares to high dollar stallions you are hoping not to have to resort to state bred incentives. Plus some of these states have breed back requirements where for the foal to be considered a state bred the mare must be bred back to a stallion standing in that state. One of the reasons you dont see any LA breds by good stallions out of good mares.

[SniperSB23]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Because when you are breeding top quality mares to high dollar stallions you are hoping not to have to resort to state bred incentives. Plus some of these states have breed back requirements where for the foal to be considered a state bred the mare must be bred back to a stallion standing in that state. One of the reasons you dont see any LA breds by good stallions out of good mares.

Hadn't heard of those breed back requirements. That is interesting. Do you think if you breed a top quality mare to a big money stallion and drop the foal in NY or LA instead of KY it will have any impact on the foal's chance of success? I would think the fact that if the foal doesn't amount to much that it could still get a win and maybe even a stakes win in statebred company would help improve the stallion's numbers and make it more appealing for the breeding farms to book out of state mares. I guess those same farms though are probably making a boatload off keeping many of those mares on their farms so that becomes the primary consideration which makes sense.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by SniperSB23

Hadn't heard of those breed back requirements. That is interesting. Do you think if you breed a top quality mare to a big money stallion and drop the foal in NY or LA instead of KY it will have any impact on the foal's chance of success? I would think the fact that if the foal doesn't amount to much that it could still get a win and maybe even a stakes win in statebred company would help improve the stallion's numbers and make it more appealing for the breeding farms to book out of state mares. I guess those same farms though are probably making a boatload off keeping many of those mares on their farms so that becomes the primary consideration which makes sense.

That is like buying a Porsche because you can salvage some of its value at the used car lot if it is a lemon. Or playing a huge pick 6 ticket because you have a better shot of getting at least 5 with a large ticket. There is no bigger gamble than breeding high class mare and top stallions. Because of the costs associated you have to look to hit the home run. Of course there are many more statebreds by much better quality stallions in NY in particular than ever.

If a horse is going to be a really good horse it may not matter if it is born in Alaska. Good horses come from the strangest places and are sometimes by obscure breeding also. But the land, climate and quality of farms, clinics, and vets are very much superior in KY than in any other state. If I had a grade 1 winning mare in foal I would want her in KY.

there are quite a few reasons one might consider on where to foal their babies. Could be the farm where the stallion stands or where one's personal farm is or you want to be close to it, you know and trust, state bred programs or even the sales ring... a Kentucky bred is more likely to bring more than a Wisconsin bred. Remember this also.... a horse may be bred in one state, foaled in another and trained in yet another.... many factors many reasons... one person's preference....

[pmacdaddy]

To potentially further complicate the issue.

I understand that a non NY bred mare could be sent to a Registered NY Stallion, foal in a state other than NY and the foal could still be considered eligible for races restricted to NY breds.

If that is in fact true. How does it work, does the owner make a decision as to what state the foal is "bred" in? I guess theoretically a foal could meet requirements of more than one State. NY stallion as sire, but also meeting foaling requirements of another state.

[Cannon Shell]

I believe that a horse is considered "Delaware certified" if it spends 60 or 90 days as a yearling/2yo in a farm located in Delaware regardless of where it was foaled or where their sire stands.

[citycat]

I realize that this message board is made up of alot of handicappers/horse lovers but to the lot of us that own thoroughbreds it does make a difference where the horse is bred/born.

As CannonShell pointed out good horses can come from anywhere and without great pedigree but that is the exception rather than the rule.

One of the biggest reasons would be purse structures. If you look at a condition book/program you will notice that on allowance races there is generally added purse money for state bred horses that comes from state thoroughbred associations (or slots). This is important to an owner with respect to their particular situation and their trainer. For example if you have a nice LA bred horse it would be of value for you to run the horse in Louisiana on occasion to make extra purse money. In that situation you might want your trainer to "winter" in Louisiana. However if your trainer winters in Arkansas or Florida it might not be the best financial situation for you. That is when you go to sales to purchase yearlings/two year olds you generally do look at where the horse was bred. This is where your trainer/owner relationship comes into play. You have to know where your trainer runs horses. All things equal at a sale I would take a KY/FL bred over a NY/LA/ILL bred horse (in general) because my horses run in KY and winter in FLA. That gives the trainer/owner the best opportunity to make the most money.

Again, nice horses can come from anywhere but for owners/trainers it is not just as simple as "who cares" where they are born/bred.

[pmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I believe that a horse is considered "Delaware certified" if it spends 60 or 90 days as a yearling/2yo in a farm located in Delaware regardless of where it was foaled or where their sire stands.

Is it possible for a horse to be eligible to race against State Breds in more than one state? Can a horse be "NY Bred" and "Delaware certified"?