Not again ....

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by Danzig

i find it interesting that a guy who claims he's for integrity in the sport hired one of those trainers.

Who?

[ELA]

Originally Posted by Danzig

all major sports have a national governing body. racing does not. and that's a big part of the problem. we have a crazy quilt of states with their own rules and regs for racing. there should be national standards in place, and rules with real teeth in them for those who don't play by them.

Agreed. Without question. However, don't be surprised -- if it happens -- if all lines drawn don't end with the owner. I think a national governing body must, as you said, have the real bite behind the bark.

Standardbred racing doesn't have that either. But years ago, there was no reciprocity. Today there is. The reasons there is no national governing body are many, and complex, but hopefully that will change.

But I think there is also a thought process that must be looked at. I've asked it before -- is MLB going to hold Steinbrenner responsible for one or more of his players taking steroids? Is major league baseball going to look at his role if any, his involvement if any, his knowledge of the situation if any, and so on. Employer/employee relationship, and many more different elements of course.

Eric

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Who?

more like which one.....

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by ELA

I asked, and I've been told it's a legal drug to have on the vet's truck, it has everyday use and it's cosidered to be therapuetic in nature. I don't know if that's subject to interpretation or not.

I would think that if it wasn't therapeutic, it would have a more severe classification, stronger penalty, fine, etc. and we wouldn't be looking at 15 days or something of the like. Maybe one of the resident vets or trainers can shed light on this.

Eric

I'm sure many people who have participated on this thread have come into contact with lidocaine at some point. While it could be used as a nerve blocking agent in high doses it is commonly associated with hand lotion and other over the counter pain relieving cremes. Since he got a short suspension I am assuming that the levels found were very low. Steve Penrod, who is about as far away from a 'juice' trainer as there is, served a 30 day suspension in KY a few years ago because his groom bought an over the counter 'aloe' lotion to treat a horses cracked heels. At the time the rules in KY said 30 min for Lidocaine regardless of level even though they knew why it happened.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by paisjpq

more like which one.....

I'm an owl

[sumitas]

ummm from the Hillary school of debating ?

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by Cardus

My apologies to everyone who participated in this thread, for I'm told that lidocaine is not a pain killer.

It is a nerve blocker, which means that no pain gets through, as opposed to a pain killer, which minimizes pain. No pain gets through, which makes a nerve blocker like lidocaine more powerful than a pain killer.

You keep bringing this up, so I must assume you still have a gripe with Contessa "getting off easy".....

I hate the let the facts get in the way of a good rant, but again - I am aware of this particular trainer's record since mid 2005, Since then he has saddled over 3500 mounts and has had 1 Bute and 1 Lido overage to since - 2 out of 3500..... (approx 900 in 2005 since I got involved), ALL of last year (approx 1500), and 2 of 1100 this year = 3500....I DARE you to recollect ANYTHING that you do - especially considering work done out of out of your hands, out of your sight that you are responsible for, to that level of perfection.


Hard to imagine that anyone could consider 2 out of 3500 as "Numerous and Serious" and "Directly related to immediate improvement" but as long as someone has an axe to grind....It's a coincidence that's clearly over my head

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Pain relieving creams for animals, or for people? Can you name a pain relieving over-the-counter cream for people with lidocaine?

benadryl cream...for bug bites...I could name a bunch but that's just one.

not that I think Contessa or any other trainer is getting his postives from those kinds of contamination.

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Can you name a pain relieving over-the-counter cream for people with lidocaine?

Bactine, Lanacane, Solarcaine and practically every aloe based sunburn remedy, ect. there are many.

[Rudeboyelvis]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Let's start here: who is the source of that quote?

http://thechalk.blogspot.com/2007/10...or-jugged.html

[ELA]

Originally Posted by Cardus

Eric,

I do not understand the "it's easy to be a critic" tack here. Why is it so hard to understand that some people would not subject his horse to something that, perhaps not illlegal, is not in the horse's best interest? I'm certain that I would not operate in the same alleged way as those owners listed above.

Please clarify the "Everybody is entitled their business the way they want" line. Does that mean that owners can operate as they want within or without the rules? I don't think that you mean that, but that's how it came across.

No, of course it didn't mean that. Come on now, be reasonable.

The critic tack is in my mind part of the problem. Some people wouldn't subject a horse to something . . . OK. I'll buy that. And some will. Period. That is almost, in today's environment, a moot discussion. What isn't moot are the rules, or lack thereof. That's what matters.

This is also a circular discussion. If someone doesn't like the fact that Jess Jackson, who speaks for integrity in the game, has chosen Steve Assmusen as a trainer -- let them boycott his operation. Don't board your mares at his farm, don't visit his consignment or buy horses from there, and so on. Anything else? Boycott the states that don't have rules to our satisfaction? Don't bet on the horses? Where is this conversation going?

If someone doesn't like the way Jess Jackson runs his business -- what are they going to do about it? Not buy his wine? Or were we talking about horses here?

Change will in fact come from within. I just don't think it will come in the fashion talked about here.

Eric

[bogeydaman]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

You keep bringing this up, so I must assume you still have a gripe with Contessa "getting off easy".....

I hate the let the facts get in the way of a good rant, but again - I am aware of this particular trainer's record since mid 2005, Since then he has saddled over 3500 mounts and has had 1 Bute and 1 Lido overage to since - 2 out of 3500..... (approx 900 in 2005 since I got involved), ALL of last year (approx 1500), and 2 of 1100 this year = 3500....I DARE you to recollect ANYTHING that you do - especially considering work done out of out of your hands, out of your sight that you are responsible for, to that level of perfection.


Hard to imagine that anyone could consider 2 out of 3500 as "Numerous and Serious" and "Directly related to immediate improvement" but as long as someone has an axe to grind....It's a coincidence that over my head

Well, since you ask for examples.... I hope the guy that inspects my aircraft prior to takeoff has a better track record that 2 crashes per 3500 inspections / takeoffs. I hope the drug company QA Manager that makes my medication does not poison 2 out of every 3500 products it manufactures.

It all depends on what level of "failure" you are willing to "live with".

Granted a positive test does not necessarily equate to a death as the examples above, but it very well could (if the horse broke down causing harm to the jockey and other jocks in the race).

[ELA]

I don't have a problem with anyone responding. Not at all. I wouldn't enter that arguement, and I never critisize those who do.

In this situation, I think it's pretty simple. Drug, medication, call it whatever you want. There's a rule. A Contessa trained horse came up positive, which is a violation of the rule. There is a trainer responsibility rule. There is a stipulated fine and penalty. He'll pay and serve.

Interesting thought process here though Cardus. Think about this a bit. How many people here at this BB have noticed or commented on how Contessa's results, stats, performance, wins, etc. have gone up over the recent years? Call it X years. How many people here will say it's because he's got something, or got something better, found something, got a new vet, changed the program, or some other rhetoric? Certainly since the rise I refer to, I've read more "juice trainer" comments attributable to him. I've certainly read more criticisms about Contessa.

My point? The same point I made when people said Mott was super-hot at the Spa and started out horribly at Belmont, and now at Aqueduct he's what? 0 for what? Too many people were "looking for reasons" and making a lot of comments. Point being -- there is more, often more to what meets the eye, the limited eye, the eye that often looks to and for negativity and to critisize.

I guess that's the tone of this place, the media and the industry at large. I wonder why we all stick around then, LOL.

Good night all.

Eric

[ELA]

Originally Posted by merasmag

zigs, i've been saying this for a long time...but i don't know if the outcome would be what we want

Agreed!

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by merasmag

i will boycott jackson/kendall if i think he's hurtin his horses...and i take it u wouldn't...may i ask how old u r?

I would not say this about many people but this may hurt Jackson

[paisjpq]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

I would not say this about many people but this may hurt Jackson

this deserves pies......OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO