California Chrome: Pennsylvania Derby

[Merlinsky]

Originally Posted by 10 pnt move up

No "flying over the mountains" comments?

Zenyatta would eat him for her in-flight meal.

Originally Posted by Danzig

and like i said above, people have been criticized for not shipping. now they're getting criticized for shipping.
it's ridiculous.
if people have issues with the owners, i can understand that. but to suggest they're greedy or shouldn't ship isn't valid criticism.
people wanted him to come east...now he is, but to the wrong spot. so now it's greed? or he suddenly shouldn't ship after having done so just fine before?
people complained when they mentioned possibly skipping the santa anita derby. they decided to run-that was being a good sport, but now if they run it's greed?
we complain that horses don't run enough, then we complain when they run too much. oh, he's too young to retire, oh, he's too old to run.
you're damned no matter what you do.

http://www.taleswithmorals.com/aesop...the-donkey.htm

Oh please. How's it not valid criticism? They've made a point of directing where their horse goes for races or parading based on money (not purses, things like appearance fees and bonuses). They've straight up said it. Los Al must've refused their demand to pay Chrome's expenses to the BC. They were trying to demand that since they'd be skipping the Awesome Again (a Win and You're In, I believe) to run in a Los Al Mile. Apparently he's not a parade horse...unless you cough up the and then they'll find it in their hearts. They're not letting Art Sherman pick spots based on what's right for the horse first, and you can tell from how he phrases things to the media. The man's a saint. I don't believe in the slightest that they pick spots based on sportsmanship. They've shown their colors there. It's one thing to be upset after a race, but you refuse to comment and get back to them later. You don't smack talk and then double down after you should've cooled down instead.

You've set up a lot of straw men there. I guess we shouldn't criticize anybody ever.

[King Glorious]

So a California based horse is shipping east to race for $1 million and people are complaining? I don't get it. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the race four weeks after the Travers so any of the runners out of that race can easily come back in Pennsylvania. Plus, the owner and trainer of Tonalist and Bayern are also guaranteed the same bonus as Chrome's people are. I understand it's not the Haskell or the Travers and doesn't have the same prestige but it has the same money and if none of those others big guns go to Parx, Chrome will be 1/2 in a $1 million race. Forgive my ignorance but I can't for the life of me understand how it would make more sense to go to a tougher race for the same money when you are the current leader of the division. If they want him, he's coming to their back yard so they can go get him. The leaders aren't usually the ones doing the chasing.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Merlinsky

Zenyatta would eat him for her in-flight meal.



Oh please. How's it not valid criticism? They've made a point of directing where their horse goes for races or parading based on money (not purses, things like appearance fees and bonuses). They've straight up said it. Los Al must've refused their demand to pay Chrome's expenses to the BC. They were trying to demand that since they'd be skipping the Awesome Again (a Win and You're In, I believe) to run in a Los Al Mile. Apparently he's not a parade horse...unless you cough up the and then they'll find it in their hearts. They're not letting Art Sherman pick spots based on what's right for the horse first, and you can tell from how he phrases things to the media. The man's a saint. I don't believe in the slightest that they pick spots based on sportsmanship. They've shown their colors there. It's one thing to be upset after a race, but you refuse to comment and get back to them later. You don't smack talk and then double down after you should've cooled down instead.

You've set up a lot of straw men there. I guess we shouldn't criticize anybody ever.

since when is trying to get some money a bad thing? these people aren't exactly the phippses.
the horse needs a race, he's getting a race.
if people don't like the owners, that's fine.
but to infer they're greedy and wrong for shipping imo is just criticism for the sake of criticizing the owners, who aren't likable...rather than criticizing because it's a legit complaint.
criticizing his comments post belmont is one thing, criticizing the owners for sending a horse to a graded race with a purse-that's bs.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by King Glorious

So a California based horse is shipping east to race for $1 million and people are complaining? I don't get it. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the race four weeks after the Travers so any of the runners out of that race can easily come back in Pennsylvania. Plus, the owner and trainer of Tonalist and Bayern are also guaranteed the same bonus as Chrome's people are. I understand it's not the Haskell or the Travers and doesn't have the same prestige but it has the same money and if none of those others big guns go to Parx, Chrome will be 1/2 in a $1 million race. Forgive my ignorance but I can't for the life of me understand how it would make more sense to go to a tougher race for the same money when you are the current leader of the division. If they want him, he's coming to their back yard so they can go get him. The leaders aren't usually the ones doing the chasing.

people wanted him to come east-now he is, and the owners are just horrible people.
had he stayed west, the owners would be horrible people for not coming east.

[Dunbar]

Interesting perspectives in this thread, but IMO this made the most sense:

Originally Posted by King Glorious

So a California based horse is shipping east to race for $1 million and people are complaining? I don't get it. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the race four weeks after the Travers so any of the runners out of that race can easily come back in Pennsylvania. Plus, the owner and trainer of Tonalist and Bayern are also guaranteed the same bonus as Chrome's people are. I understand it's not the Haskell or the Travers and doesn't have the same prestige but it has the same money and if none of those others big guns go to Parx, Chrome will be 1/2 in a $1 million race. Forgive my ignorance but I can't for the life of me understand how it would make more sense to go to a tougher race for the same money when you are the current leader of the division. If they want him, he's coming to their back yard so they can go get him. The leaders aren't usually the ones doing the chasing.

--Dunbar

[Pants II]

It is no different than Roger Federer playing the Queen's Club tournament and skipping Wimbledon and using the Queen's Club as a prep for the US Open.

No sane person would defend that.

This is why horse racing is a non-story. Too many cowards and idiots that defend them.

If the horse was only moderately good he would've entered in the Travers and cakewalked the field yesterday. It was a horrible race with over-rated mediocrities.

[King Glorious]

I'm pretty sure the purse money for the Queen's Club is nowhere close to comparable to Wimbledon.

I understand your point and don't totally disagree with it. I think that the sport would be much better off with a coordinated stakes schedule among the tracks and maybe even with defined rules on who can and can't enter certain races. There is no doubt that the Travers is a much more prestigious race to be in but with the way things are now, there is also no doubt that it's not as important as it used to be. With the addition of races like the West Virginia Derby, the Penn Derby, the Indiana Derby, and even the Pacific Classic, the options are more plentiful than they used to be. So if I want to blame anyone, I blame the sport. I don't blame the owners for taking an easier path to the money and the championship. We've seen Lookin at Lucky, Curlin, and Big Brown recently win the Eclipse after not running in the Travers.

The fact is, after yesterday's race, even though you may call them cowards, they are looking even better. They didn't lose any ground in the championship race. They probably increased their lead. They will still be running for $1 million and they are going to be odds-on to win it and strengthen their position even more.

[Danzig]

it would have been rushing to get chrome ready for the travers. definitely has a lot more prestige, but the penna derby makes far more sense for a variety of reasons.
later in the year, better spacing to use as a single prep for the bcc, since they say only one race prior to the classic. better distance, more prep time to bring the horse back from a tough spring campaign as well as a hoof injury. shorter distance, not as tough competition, same age group, and a sweet purse.
what's not to like in regard to long term goals?

[Pants II]

KG I understand your point about the money. But remember this is the same two guys that turned down upwards of 6 million before the Derby for what was it...a 51% share of the horse?

I just don't understand these guys is all. They're all over the place.

zig...the horse would have been ready for the Travers. It was their decision to give him a layoff during the most active time of the sport. What exactly are they laying him off for again? The Japan Cup?

Come on.

It's just frustrating watching a good horse waste his 3 year old season in a barn. A horse that arguably won't be as good due to the layoff.

[Patrick333]

Originally Posted by SundayStar

i hope he wins the pa derby big and then wins the bc classic

It wouldn't break my heart if won both of them. He's a gutty horse.

[GenuineRisk]

I don't see it as a weird choice- the horse is a dual classic winner, and short of winning the Breeders' Cup Classic, I don't see how his value as a stud is going to change much one way or another, regardless of what happens here on out. So why not run him in what they hope will be a soft spot, where they're guaranteed a pretty generous check for both them and their trainer?

As for turning down the 51% sale of him, one of the requirements was a change of trainer, and regardless of how thoroughly media unsavvy they are, they've been quite loyal to Sherman. In a business where talented horses get bought up the second they show ability and handed off to big trainers that already have dozens of good horses, I can't dislike owners that stay with the trainer who took them on to begin with.

[OldDog]

Originally Posted by Patrick333

It wouldn't break my heart if won both of them. He's a gutty horse.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

I don't see it as a weird choice- the horse is a dual classic winner, and short of winning the Breeders' Cup Classic, I don't see how his value as a stud is going to change much one way or another, regardless of what happens here on out. So why not run him in what they hope will be a soft spot, where they're guaranteed a pretty generous check for both them and their trainer?

As for turning down the 51% sale of him, one of the requirements was a change of trainer, and regardless of how thoroughly media unsavvy they are, they've been quite loyal to Sherman. In a business where talented horses get bought up the second they show ability and handed off to big trainers that already have dozens of good horses, I can't dislike owners that stay with the trainer who took them on to begin with.

And agreed. Well, at least I can't dislike them for that.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by GenuineRisk

I don't see it as a weird choice- the horse is a dual classic winner, and short of winning the Breeders' Cup Classic, I don't see how his value as a stud is going to change much one way or another, regardless of what happens here on out. So why not run him in what they hope will be a soft spot, where they're guaranteed a pretty generous check for both them and their trainer?

As for turning down the 51% sale of him, one of the requirements was a change of trainer, and regardless of how thoroughly media unsavvy they are, they've been quite loyal to Sherman. In a business where talented horses get bought up the second they show ability and handed off to big trainers that already have dozens of good horses, I can't dislike owners that stay with the trainer who took them on to begin with.

it's not a weird choice at all. it was a smart move in every respect.

[ajphilly]

Chrome might not be the only horse coming in from the West.

http://www.courier-journal.com/story...erby/14636225/

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by ajphilly

Chrome might not be the only horse coming in from the West.

http://www.courier-journal.com/story...erby/14636225/

Very interesting! Good on the West Coasters for traveling. It'll make for a fun day in PA if it happens.

[OldDog]

Originally Posted by ajphilly

Chrome might not be the only horse coming in from the West.

http://www.courier-journal.com/story...erby/14636225/

Holy crap, that would be tremendous.

[SundayStar]

Originally Posted by ajphilly

Chrome might not be the only horse coming in from the West.

http://www.courier-journal.com/story...erby/14636225/

that would be great

[ateamstupid]

No dice. Hollendorfer says Shared Belief staying home for the Awesome Again.

[TouchOfGrey]

I was under the impression California Chrome was eligible for a bonus only if he won the PA Derby because he won the KY Derby and Preakness. But according to what I've read below, his connections get an "appearance fee" just for showing up. Is this really how it works?

Courier-Journal: Bayern to challenge Chrome in Pa. Derby

Appearance fees associated with the race, as well as a $1 million purse, made it worth shipping the dual-classic winner one more time before the Breeders’ Cup.

ESPN: Formidable or vulnerable in Penn Derby?

Appearance fees of $100,000 for owners Steve Coburn and Perry Martin as well as Sherman no doubt also played a role in opting to run in Bensalem, Pennsylvania, instead of their home state of California.

Philly.com: California Chrome is headliner in Pa. Derby

Chrome trainer Art Sherman will receive a $100,000 bonus for showing up because his colt won the Derby and the Preakness . Owners Steve Coburn and Perry Martin - the self-named "Dumbass Partners" - also will share a $100,000 bonus.

[GenuineRisk]

Originally Posted by TouchOfGrey

I was under the impression California Chrome was eligible for a bonus only if he won the PA Derby because he won the KY Derby and Preakness. But according to what I've read below, his connections get an "appearance fee" just for showing up. Is this really how it works

Yes, as soon as he leaves the starting gate, the owners and the trainer get $100,000 apiece. It's an incentive to lure the big horses. I like that the trainer gets the same fee as the owners.