Breeders Cup Turf winners 1999-2008

[cakes44]

Since we're talking bad rides now, I'd like to see some rankings of worst BC rides in any turf race. There have been some BEAUTIES, especially from the Euro jocks.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

That's an interesting twist. Johar was able to deadheat with the beloved High Chapparal due to a bad ride a jock gave a third horse?

And just how many races of Johar's did you see? As Rollo just mentioned, Johar was coming around nicely towards the end of his three year old campaign, and personally, I think he would have won the BC that year had he run in it.

You may have seen more in Johar than he put on the track but it's somewhat undeniable given what we saw from horses like Daylami, Fantastic Light, Kalanisi, and even the emerging Conduit that they are far better than him on their best days.

NT

[King Glorious]

Ranking them strictly based on their Turf wins:

1. Daylami
2. Shirocco
3. High Chaparral
4. Fantastic Light
5. English Channel
6. Kalanisi
7. Red Rocks
8. Conduit
9. Better Talk Now
10. Johar

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by cakes44

Since we're talking bad rides now, I'd like to see some rankings of worst BC rides in any turf race. There have been some BEAUTIES, especially from the Euro jocks.

I nominate Murtagh's ride on Soldier of Fortune last year. Hurrying into your rabbit on the backstretch of a 12 furlong race is always intelligent.

Of course there's also Swain.

NT

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

I nominate Murtagh's ride on Soldier of Fortune last year. Hurrying into your rabbit on the backstretch of a 12 furlong race is always intelligent.

Of course there's also Swain.

NT

Spencer gave Powerscourt a really brilliant one, too.

[brockguy]

Originally Posted by Indian Charlie

That's an interesting twist. Johar was able to deadheat with the beloved High Chapparal due to a bad ride a jock gave a third horse?

And just how many races of Johar's did you see? As Rollo just mentioned, Johar was coming around nicely towards the end of his three year old campaign, and personally, I think he would have won the BC that year had he run in it.

Go on then, tell me how impressive Johar was for the rest of his career? No need, he wasnt. You can come up with all the ifs and buts in the world, but I cant see how you can put him any higher.

On the other hand, High Chaparral won the Derby, The Irish Derby, another Breeders Cup, an Irish Champion Stakes and on his bad days, he came 3rd in 2 Arcs.. He also won a G1 as a 2 year old..

[brockguy]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

I nominate Murtagh's ride on Soldier of Fortune last year. Hurrying into your rabbit on the backstretch of a 12 furlong race is always intelligent.

Of course there's also Swain.

NT

Murtagh's ride on Soldier gets some amount of bad press over here as well, a way in how not to do team tactics.. but i sort of got what Coolmore were trying to do. Soldier of Fortune isnt quick, he is essentially a grinder, no turn of foot, just a real stayer. I guess they thought if they made it into a real slog from a mile out, he would be the one that would last home. If they went any slower they would be vulnerable to anyone with a turn of foot.

Still it wasnt a good ride, there was the Leger winner who basically got his dream pace scenario due to Coolmore..

Spencer's ride on Powerscourt was awful. He doubled up pretty nicely with Antonius Pius that year!

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by brockguy

Murtagh's ride on Soldier gets some amount of bad press over here as well, a way in how not to do team tactics.. but i sort of got what Coolmore were trying to do. Soldier of Fortune isnt quick, he is essentially a grinder, no turn of foot, just a real stayer. I guess they thought if they made it into a real slog from a mile out, he would be the one that would last home. If they went any slower they would be vulnerable to anyone with a turn of foot.

Still it wasnt a good ride, there was the Leger winner who basically got his dream pace scenario due to Coolmore..

Spencer ride on Powerscourt was awful. He doubled up pretty nicely with Antonius Pius that year!

Whatever their intention was that's fine but Diane Nelson would have been able to tell that they were flying in front of her and it was probably a bad idea to engage at the 5/8 pole in a 12 furlong race.

The plan to win with the best stayer is realistic when you're talking about a mid-range type pace. However, Murtagh had to have known they were cooking in front of him and whether he did or not, to me it was a terrible ride.

NT

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Johar was in the midsts of pronounced progression late in his 3yo year, and his first start of 2003 (victory of elder The Tin Man) looked as though it would be a springboard to much greater things. A shoulder injury derailed everything.

His two losses prior to the BC, hardly humiliating defeats, could easily be seen as "racing into form" preps for the Turf.Its not hard to imagine the horse being at least the equivalent of another American like Bien Bien in terms of accomplishments, had he stayed healthy.

They werre also in highly unusual 3 and 4 horse fields

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by brockguy

Go on then, tell me how impressive Johar was for the rest of his career? No need, he wasnt. You can come up with all the ifs and buts in the world, but I cant see how you can put him any higher.

On the other hand, High Chaparral won the Derby, The Irish Derby, another Breeders Cup, an Irish Champion Stakes and on his bad days, he came 3rd in 2 Arcs.. He also won a G1 as a 2 year old..

You seem stuck on superficial form. Of course, most on total accomplishment, surpass Johar. But whereas time may mean little in Europe, certainly NA handicappers glancing at the 1:46 flat for the Oak Tree Derby, the record setting 1:57 4/5 for the San Marcos, or the 2:24+ in the BC Turf have to admit he was a serious racehorse, probably more so than Red Rocks and Better Talk Now at the very least.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

You may have seen more in Johar than he put on the track but it's somewhat undeniable given what we saw from horses like Daylami, Fantastic Light, Kalanisi, and even the emerging Conduit that they are far better than him on their best days.

NT

Except what you are doing is mostly comparing older European horse form to an american three year old form. The only 2 legit races Johar ran in as a 4 year old he won. He dead heated High Chapparal. For those that dont understand that means tied. That means he beat a bunch of other Euros and was at least the equal of the best one. Look at Schirrocos form. Before the BC he never won a race outside of Germany or Italy. It is pretty apparant that we never saw much of the best of Johar on the track as an older horse.

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by brockguy

Go on then, tell me how impressive Johar was for the rest of his career? No need, he wasnt. You can come up with all the ifs and buts in the world, but I cant see how you can put him any higher.

On the other hand, High Chaparral won the Derby, The Irish Derby, another Breeders Cup, an Irish Champion Stakes and on his bad days, he came 3rd in 2 Arcs.. He also won a G1 as a 2 year old..

Yet he could only muster a dead heat with lowly Johar in the Cup

[brockguy]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Look at Schirrocos form. Before the BC he never won a race outside of Germany or Italy. It is pretty apparant that we never saw much of the best of Johar on the track as an older horse.

There's a lot hidden in that statement Chuck.. He never raced outside Germany (where he won the Derby) and Italy (where he beat a Dubai World Cup winner!) until September of his 4yo career. After being off for a nearly a year, He was 3rd behind Pride (multple G1 filly) and Alkaased (a Japan Cup winner) in his prep for the Arc, then was 4th in the Arc behind mutiple G1 winners Hurricane Run, Westerner and Bago.

Excluding Johars BC win, you could say Shirocco's 4th in that Arc was better than anything Johar accomplished..

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by brockguy

There's a lot hidden in that statement Chuck.. He never raced outside Germany (where he won the Derby) and Italy (where he beat a Dubai World Cup winner!) until September of his 4yo career. After being off for a nearly a year, He was 3rd behind Pride (multple G1 filly) and Alkaased (a Japan Cup winner) in his prep for the Arc, then was 4th in the Arc behind mutiple G1 winners Hurricane Run, Westerner and Bago.

Excluding Johars BC win, you could say Shirocco's 4th in that Arc was better than anything Johar accomplished..

That may be true but Johar did DH with a very very good horse in High Chaparel which surely is a better effort than anything Shirocco ever produced. The fact was Johar was a horse who improved almost from day 1, had a compromised 4 year old year and no record after the BC due to injury. While his body of work may not be as complete as some of the others his best race was pretty damn good. Certainly he wasnt a cinch to continue to improve but chances are that we never did see his best. Plus Shirracco beat Ace in his BC. Hank could give Ace a run for his money.

[NTamm1215]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Except what you are doing is mostly comparing older European horse form to an american three year old form. The only 2 legit races Johar ran in as a 4 year old he won. He dead heated High Chapparal. For those that dont understand that means tied. That means he beat a bunch of other Euros and was at least the equal of the best one. Look at Schirrocos form. Before the BC he never won a race outside of Germany or Italy. It is pretty apparant that we never saw much of the best of Johar on the track as an older horse.

Thanks for the clarification on what's a dead heat. That's scheduled to be covered in session #4 that I have with RockHardTenPGJCS113004055Dagulla where he teaches me racing and we're only on #2.

I'm not getting into potential because that's really what any fan of Johar is resting their case upon.

I didn't say anything about Shirocco but having the luxury of seeing the entire careers of Fantastic Light, Daylami, and Kalanisi, then I'm willing to say that even if we didn't see the best of Johar, it would have had to be better than anything he had done prior to best those "older European horses."

NT

[Cannon Shell]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Thanks for the clarification on what's a dead heat. That's scheduled to be covered in session #4 that I have with RockHardTenPGJCS113004055Dagulla where he teaches me racing and we're only on #2.

I'm not getting into potential because that's really what any fan of Johar is resting their case upon.

I didn't say anything about Shirocco but having the luxury of seeing the entire careers of Fantastic Light, Daylami, and Kalanisi, then I'm willing to say that even if we didn't see the best of Johar, it would have had to be better than anything he had done prior to best those "older European horses."

NT

Of course it is conjecture but again you are comparing established older horse form to an abbreviated career. Not saying that Johar was going to be better than those but the fact was his 2 fairly run races as a 4 year old were pretty damn good. And if he was good enough on his best day to DH with the 2nd best horse on the list than he surely had the potential to be at least as good s the rest if he had been given the chance. It wasnt as though he was some bum as BWS is trying to imply.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by Cannon Shell

Of course it is conjecture but again you are comparing established older horse form to an abbreviated career. Not saying that Johar was going to be better than those but the fact was his 2 fairly run races as a 4 year old were pretty damn good. And if he was good enough on his best day to DH with the 2nd best horse on the list than he surely had the potential to be at least as good s the rest if he had been given the chance. It wasnt as though he was some bum as BWS is trying to imply.

I do like that you called me out, when I've been much nicer than several others posting about him.

With that said...

I'm fairly confident that my assessment is much closer to spot on than that one borderline unbelievable post in here that was trying to imply that a nose win over Rock Opera was going to be a springboard to a BC Turf win.

I never said he was terrible. I stand by the assertion that EVERYONE else here but you and IC is trying to say -- that he ran a huge race in the BC....but on that list, he's just not that good compared to them, you know, the original point of the thread.

[RockHardTen1985]

Originally Posted by NTamm1215

Thanks for the clarification on what's a dead heat. That's scheduled to be covered in session #4 that I have with RockHardTenPGJCS113004055Dagulla where he teaches me racing and we're only on #2.

I'm not getting into potential because that's really what any fan of Johar is resting their case upon.

I didn't say anything about Shirocco but having the luxury of seeing the entire careers of Fantastic Light, Daylami, and Kalanisi, then I'm willing to say that even if we didn't see the best of Johar, it would have had to be better than anything he had done prior to best those "older European horses."

NT

Not cool Nick.

[RolloTomasi]

Originally Posted by brianwspencer

I'm fairly confident that my assessment is much closer to spot on than that one borderline unbelievable post in here that was trying to imply that a nose win over Rock Opera was going to be a springboard to a BC Turf win.

Itsallgreektome won a Grade 3 at Bay Meadows against fellow 3yos before nearly taking down the BC Mile in '90. It goes back to the idea that young horses can progress fairly rapidly.

While in 2002 Indian Charlie would have been dodging tomatoes for predicting such, the fact that Johar DID win the BC Turf the following year takes a lot of the absurdity out of the prediction.

[brianwspencer]

Originally Posted by RolloTomasi

Itsallgreektome won a Grade 3 at Bay Meadows against fellow 3yos before nearly taking down the BC Mile in '90. It goes back to the idea that young horses can progress fairly rapidly.

While in 2002 Indian Charlie would have been dodging tomatoes for predicting such, the fact that Johar DID win the BC Turf the following year takes a lot of the absurdity out of the prediction.

Except for the fact that they're a year apart and don't really have anything to do with each other.

Obviously Johar was a better horse the year he won the BC Turf. The idea that a desperate nose winner over Rock Opera was going to go win the BC Turf in his next start (no less after seeing how it was won....) is made no less absurd because the horse won the BC turf over a year later. Non sequiter.