Questions for PointGiven1985

Indian Charlie · #1 03-06-2007, 04:05 PM

Hi PG!

DrugS and I were debating the merits of some horses from earlier this decade, and we had trouble agreeing on who were the better horses.

I'd like to get your opinion on these two matchups to help settle the argument.

Now, keep in mind, that these matchups are based on each horse being at the top of their game, and at a track and distance that are fair to all.

First, I say Empire Maker was better than Funny Cide, and he says Funny Cide was better than Empire Maker.

The other matchup would be Peace Rules vs Lava Man (IN CALIFORNIA!!). I say Lava Man, he says Peace Rules.

What do you think?

The Indomitable DrugS · #2 03-06-2007, 04:10 PM

Of course I think Empire Maker was a better horse than Funny Cide and should have won the Eclipse.

blackthroatedwind · #3 03-06-2007, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

Of course I think Empire Maker was a better horse than Funny Cide and should have won the Eclipse.

He probably was the better horse but why in the hell should he have won the eclipse? Because he lost the Jim Dandy to Strong Hope?

Sorry dude, but the TC races are what really count, and unless a horse excels in the important later races during the year it is those races that matter. Winning the Sham carries very little weight. Without looking it up, how many can name who was second in the Florida Derby ( a strong group of six no doubt ).

The Indomitable DrugS · #4 03-06-2007, 04:18 PM

The horse that was 2nd in the FLA Derby, Trust N Luck, ran a 110 Beyer at 2.

Empire Maker did not win the Sham stakes either.

I pretty much agree with the same case Crist made for EM winning the Eclipse. How he had a heads up winning record against everyone in that crop.

blackthroatedwind · #5 03-06-2007, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

The horse that was 2nd in the FLA Derby, Trust N Luck, ran a 110 Beyer at 2.

Empire Maker did not win the Sham stakes either.

I pretty much agree with the same case Crist made for EM winning the Eclipse. How he had a heads up winning record against everyone in that crop.

Sorry...yer right. I meant to say " third in the Sham doesn't carry a lot of weight.

I was confused, as I always felt Master David was robbed in 2004, when they completely ignored HIS devastion of the Sham field and gave the award, foolishly I may add, to Smarty Jones.

Cajungator26 · #6 03-06-2007, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Sorry...yer right. I meant to say " third in the Sham doesn't carry a lot of weight.

I was confused, as I always felt Master David was robbed in 2004, when they completely ignored HIS devastion of the Sham field and gave the award, foolishly I may add, to Smarty Jones.

HEY! He was my derby horse...

I agree, he should have won the Eclipse hands down.

blackthroatedwind · #7 03-06-2007, 04:21 PM

I was at Gulfstream as well.

Oh, Trust n Luck was a great monster ( and Cardus is right as to why he was favored ). Please DrugS, regale us with his great career accomplishments ( save the 110 Beyer ).

The Indomitable DrugS · #8 03-06-2007, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

Please DrugS, regale us with his great career accomplishments.

I'll leave the rest to the true genius of this board PointGiven1985.....

As this thread was intended for him....

The Indomitable DrugS · #9 03-06-2007, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cardus

Trust -n- Luck, who was favored over "The Empire," since he was considered lone speed.

You also have to factor in that TNL was coming in off of two lopsided wins routing, one with a 110 Beyer in a Calder Stake at age 2, and the other in a Grade 1 race by a clear-cut margin.

Empire Maker, on the other hand, was coming into the race off a loss to Man Among Men in the Sham Stakes....when he was the victim of circumstances

blackthroatedwind · #10 03-06-2007, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Indomitable DrugS

You also have to factor in that TNL was coming in off of two lopsided wins routing, one with a 110 Beyer in a Calder Stake at age 2, and the other in a Grade 1 race by a clear-cut margin.

Empire Maker, on the other hand, was coming into the race off a loss to Man Among Men in the Sham Stakes....when he was the victim of circumstances

The " Grade 1 " Trust N Luck won was a prep for a prep, known as the Fountain of Youth, which is now rightfully back to grade 2 status ( should be Grade 6 after this past weekend ).

I love how you give incomplete, and intentionally misleading, information when you know your point is weak.

The Indomitable DrugS · #11 03-06-2007, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

I love how you give incomplete, and intentionally misleading, information when you know your point is weak.

That's a really unfair comment.

I was explaining why the public made Trust N Luck the favorite over Empire Maker that day.

If you have a better explanation regarding that.....post it.

#12 03-06-2007, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackthroatedwind

FOY which is now rightfully back to grade 2 status ( should be Grade 6 after this past weekend ).

This is the deepest field we have seen so far as a true derby Prep. The Hutcheson and The RB Lewis, both grade II's were better? The FOY was a damn good race.

SentToStud · #13 03-06-2007, 04:12 PM

I wouldn't take the bait.

Second post from this person targeting you. Why you?

boswd · #14 03-06-2007, 04:58 PM

You can talk all you want about woulda's shoulda's coulda's or this one has the breeding and showd more potential. The fact remains Funny Cide won the Derby, won the Preakness came in third in The Belmont. Empire finished off the board in The Derby SKIPPED the Preakness and rested up to win the Belmont. Empire Maker lost a weaker Travers Prep in the Jim Dandy and Funny Cide went on to win the JCGC a year later.

Answer = Funny Cides Woulda's Shoulda's coulda's don't win THE DERBY and the JCGC.(arguably the two most important non BC races in the US) SORRY!!!!!!!!!!

blackthroatedwind · #15 03-06-2007, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boswd

You can talk all you want about woulda's shoulda's coulda's or this one has the breeding and showd more potential. The fact remains Funny Cide won the Derby, won the Preakness came in third in The Belmont. Empire finished off the board in The Derby SKIPPED the Preakness and rested up to win the Belmont. Empire Maker lost a weaker Travers Prep in the Jim Dandy and Funny Cide went on to win the JCGC a year later.

Answer = Funny Cides Woulda's Shoulda's coulda's don't win THE DERBY and the JCGC.(arguably the two most important non BC races in the US) SORRY!!!!!!!!!!

Empire Maker was second or third ( it was a nose either way to Peace Rules ) in the Derby.

KirisClown · #16 03-06-2007, 05:00 PM

The brilliance of Trust N Luck can be seen here...

Fountain Of Youth: http://www.equinevision.com/vsg/inde...o=performance1

What A Pleasure Stks: http://www.equinevision.com/vsg/inde...o=performance2