Questions for PointGiven1985
 

Hi PG!

DrugS and I were debating the merits of some horses from earlier this decade, and we had trouble agreeing on who were the better horses.

I'd like to get your opinion on these two matchups to help settle the argument.

Now, keep in mind, that these matchups are based on each horse being at the top of their game, and at a track and distance that are fair to all.

First, I say Empire Maker was better than Funny Cide, and he says Funny Cide was better than Empire Maker.

The other matchup would be Peace Rules vs Lava Man (IN CALIFORNIA!!). I say Lava Man, he says Peace Rules.

What do you think?

Of course I think Empire Maker was a better horse than Funny Cide and should have won the Eclipse.

Pg1985
 

I wouldn't take the bait.

Second post from this person targeting you. Why you?

He probably was the better horse but why in the hell should he have won the eclipse? Because he lost the Jim Dandy to Strong Hope?

Sorry dude, but the TC races are what really count, and unless a horse excels in the important later races during the year it is those races that matter. Winning the Sham carries very little weight. Without looking it up, how many can name who was second in the Florida Derby ( a strong group of six no doubt ).

The horse that was 2nd in the FLA Derby, Trust N Luck, ran a 110 Beyer at 2.

Empire Maker did not win the Sham stakes either.

I pretty much agree with the same case Crist made for EM winning the Eclipse. How he had a heads up winning record against everyone in that crop.

I was at Gulfstream as well.

Oh, Trust n Luck was a great monster ( and Cardus is right as to why he was favored ). Please DrugS, regale us with his great career accomplishments ( save the 110 Beyer ).

Sorry...yer right. I meant to say " third in the Sham doesn't carry a lot of weight.

I was confused, as I always felt Master David was robbed in 2004, when they completely ignored HIS devastion of the Sham field and gave the award, foolishly I may add, to Smarty Jones.

You also have to factor in that TNL was coming in off of two lopsided wins routing, one with a 110 Beyer in a Calder Stake at age 2, and the other in a Grade 1 race by a clear-cut margin.

Empire Maker, on the other hand, was coming into the race off a loss to Man Among Men in the Sham Stakes....when he was the victim of circumstances

The " Grade 1 " Trust N Luck won was a prep for a prep, known as the Fountain of Youth, which is now rightfully back to grade 2 status ( should be Grade 6 after this past weekend ).

I love how you give incomplete, and intentionally misleading, information when you know your point is weak.

I'll leave the rest to the true genius of this board PointGiven1985.....

As this thread was intended for him....

That's a really unfair comment.

I was explaining why the public made Trust N Luck the favorite over Empire Maker that day.

If you have a better explanation regarding that.....post it.

Part of it was that Empire Maker had proven absolutely nothing at that point and the rest of the field was utter garbage.

The other poster who mentioned the pace scenero is correct on that point, however, you don't think Trust N Luck's two races leading into the FLA Derby, didn't look good on paper?

And, by the way, it's totally fair. In this case you could have said he won the Florida Derby prep for this race ( at 10:1 I seem to remember ) and said it was the FOY. Instead you chose to ONLY refer to it as a " Grade 1 " which tells none of the story and only attempts to somehow elevate its status....as though the public was betting blindly on any Grade 1 winner.

i would say 8/10 empire maker would have defeated funny cide... the other one is bit harder

peace rules was a dead game horse, but in california i'd have to say lava man

It was a terrible field as I recall with only two contenders...and they finished one two.

Peace Rules in a romp in any state. The only reason Lava Man keeps in winning in California is because there is zero real competition in California.

Empire Maker was the best horse, but no way his wins trump the Derby/Preakness double. FC won the NCAAs, EM the NIT.