You are paying for it

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by jms62

http://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoco...ic-assistance/

the best part...walmart pays squat, workers get assistance, which walmart benefits from because their workers shop at walmart (but walmart employees discounts don't apply to groceries).
a win win for walmart.


i hope you saw the article i posted about what walmart would have to do to its pricing if it paid a living wage...1.4% increase. a whole penny higher on mac and cheese!!

[jms62]

Originally Posted by Danzig

the best part...walmart pays squat, workers get assistance, which walmart benefits from because their workers shop at walmart (but walmart employees discounts don't apply to groceries).
a win win for walmart.


i hope you saw the article i posted about what walmart would have to do to its pricing if it paid a living wage...1.4% increase. a whole penny higher on mac and cheese!!

But Zig there are 24 hours in a day, plenty of time for someone to have 3 jobs.. Note that 40 years ago when CEO's were paid 10x Average employee rather than 10000 times we were not in this situation. Some folks do not realize we ALL lose when wealth is concentrated like it is today. We are near 1927 levels of wealth concentration. Look what happened then.

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by jms62

But Zig there are 24 hours in a day, plenty of time for someone to have 3 jobs.. Note that 40 years ago when CEO's were paid 10x Average employee rather than 10000 times we were not in this situation.

40 years ago I was 10, my brothers were 8 and 5. My Dad worked two jobs while my mom worked part time. My brother and I went to private school paid for by my parents, we walked, my mom made our lunches and nothing was subsidized. My parents, at least until my dad left 2 years later and then my mom must have been amazing people.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

40 years ago I was 10, my brothers were 8 and 5. My Dad worked two jobs while my mom worked part time. My brother and I went to private school paid for by my parents, we walked, my mom made our lunches and nothing was subsidized. My parents, at least until my dad left 2 years later and then my mom must have been amazing people.

Sorry to hear your story however unrelated to my point about our country being at levels of wealth concentration that pushed us into the Great Depression.

[Rudeboyelvis]

With all due respect - the concentration of wealth and the minimum wage are completely irrespective of each other. Corporations are able to farm out what used to be decent paying work overseas at a fraction of the cost which boosts profits exponentially and by extension performance and thus bonuses.

This is in no way an excuse for their actions; it's just a fact of life. We now have a glut of uneducated, unmotivated younger adults that at one time could have learned a quazi-skilled trade that would have afforded them a career - nothing glitzy, but a career that would allow them to raise children, and keep a modest roof over their heads until they were pension-elgible and were able to retire.

Plenty of welders, construction & assembly line workers, et al. Earned a living without handouts from the govt.

Those jobs are gone and they ain't coming back.

The quality jobs that are left these days require a level of intelligence, skill, and training and motivation that most of these folks screaming for handouts can't or don't want to achieve.

So just blame it all on the employers of minimum-wage workers - easy targets at least.

Just because some libtard want to believe some ridiculous line of bullspit about how raising the price of a box of mac and cheese by a nickel will magically solve all of these problems, doesn't make it so.

The problems that plague this economy run so deep that we may well never get back to what we previously defined a "prosperous middle class" - But if there are solutions, the path to them will come from addressing the root cause, not some media-charged straw man that incites division.

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

With all due respect - the concentration of wealth and the minimum wage are completely irrespective of each other. Corporations are able to farm out what used to be decent paying work overseas at a fraction of the cost which boosts profits exponentially and by extension performance and thus bonuses.

This is in no way an excuse for their actions; it's just a fact of life. We now have a glut of uneducated, unmotivated younger adults that at one time could have learned a quazi-skilled trade that would have afforded them a career - nothing glitzy, but a career that would allow them to raise children, and keep a modest roof over their heads until they were pension-elgible and were able to retire.

Plenty of welders, construction & assembly line workers, et al. Earned a living without handouts from the govt.

Those jobs are gone and they ain't coming back.

The quality jobs that are left these days require a level of intelligence, skill, and training and motivation that most of these folks screaming for handouts can't or don't want to achieve.

So just blame it all on the employers of minimum-wage workers - easy targets at least.

Just because some libtard want to believe some ridiculous line of bullspit about how raising the price of a box of mac and cheese by a nickel will magically solve all of these problems, doesn't make it so.

The problems that plague this economy run so deep that we may well never get back to what we previously defined a "prosperous middle class" - But if there are solutions, the path to them will come from addressing the root cause, not some media-charged straw man that incites division.

First of all, with all due respect, I am no libtard, and it's a penny a box, not a nickel. Please stick to the topic and avoid personal tangents. As for it being bullspit....sorry, I will give weight to an economists study over your take on his study, just like I wouldn't take your opinion over Neil degrasse tyson if the subject was astronomy.
As for wages, and wealth...all wages, except to the very top earners have stagnated for decades. Profits are high, and pay to the top execs are far higher than ever before. Its disingenuous for these corporations to say they cannot aford higher pay to employees while exec pay skyrockets.
As for the old days, factory churn is in the red and has been for 15 years. Automation adad's to job losses...we have less employed along with higher then ever production. As an article I saw the other said, higher unemployment is the new normal.
Scientific gains allow us to produce more goods then ever, to take care of more people then ever, while making people increasingly unnecessary.
This country is still the number one manufacturer in the world, but the corresponding jobs aren't there.
Robots, atms, self checkouts, etc....
3 application that for every job opening. Those are facts, not thoughts, feelings, opinions.
GM used to be the biggest employer, now it's walmart. With jobs paying on average less than half what car makers were paid..
As for unskilled...we have more people going to college than ever, it's untrue we have more uneducated and unskilled people.

The root cause? It's wage stagnation, wages from bottom to near the top haven't kept pace as they should. And you can't just hope businesses will do the right thing, else they wouldn't have had to pass child labor laws, 40 hour work weeks, that owners can't lock all the doors and everyone die in a fire...

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by Danzig

This country is still the number one manufacturer in the world, but the corresponding jobs aren't there.
...

Again why let facts get in the way?

China became the largest manufacturing country in the world, overtaking the U.S. in 2010.

http://www.deloitte.com/view/en_US/u...56f70aRCRD.htm

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by jms62

Sorry to hear your story however unrelated to my point about our country being at levels of wealth concentration that pushed us into the Great Depression.

When WalMart is contributing $50 some billion in tax revenues in addition to almost $90 billion in wages and salaries, per year though how unfairly distributed it may be, we are far from the Great Depression or even a run of the mill depression but go ahead and believe the unskilled, un-under educated fuel the economy. Just as $1 in food stamps changes into $1.30 for the economy.

Then again just take a wad of money and every hour move it to another pocket if it makes you feel good.

[jms62]

Originally Posted by dellinger63

When WalMart is contributing $50 some billion in tax revenues in addition to almost $90 billion in wages and salaries, per year though how unfairly distributed it may be, we are far from the Great Depression or even a run of the mill depression but go ahead and believe the unskilled, un-under educated fuel the economy. Just as $1 in food stamps changes into $1.30 for the economy.

Then again just take a wad of money and every hour move it to another pocket if it makes you feel good.

Dell why do you continually quote my post and then rant about something completely different then my point?

[Danzig]

Just left a restaurant....it had a small 'ziosk' at every table.....now even waitstaff will be facing obsolescence.

We refused to use it. Never self check either

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by jms62

Dell why do you continually quote my post and then rant about something completely different then my point?

Sorry it's probably too abstract for you to understand.

Similar to asking the WalMart Greeter where the printer ink is.

But as long as Danzig says more people are going to college it's all good.

Even though we know over 50% of young African American males in Chicago drop out of high school.

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by jms62

Note that 40 years ago when CEO's were paid 10x Average employee rather than 10000 times we were not in this situation.

I think you just may have stumbled onto something..

1974
Median US Household Income: $12,132
Minimum Wage: $2/hr.
Federal Poverty Threshold: $2,658 or 21% of Median Household Income
Mean Sat Scores 521 Verbal/505 Math 1026 total
Poverty Rate: 11.2%
Total Budget: $453.2 Billion
Total Welfare Spending: $40.1 Billion or 8.8% of Budget Spending

2013

Median US Household Income: $51,017
Minimum Wage: $7.25/hr.
Federal Poverty Threshold: $11,670 or 23% of Median Household Income
Mean SAT Scores 496 Verbal/514 Math 1010 total
Poverty Rate: 15%
Total Budget: $3.5 Trillion
Total Welfare Spending: 500 Billion or 14.2% of Budget Spending


When comparisons are made I concede that while Median US Household Income has had a 420% increase minimum wage has increased 362% lagging behind. By raising minimum wage to $8.40 it then has kept up equally with Median Income.

In order to make today’s poverty threshold in line with 1974 we need to lower it from $11,670 to $10,713 (21% of $51,017)

SAT Scores variation of 16 points or 1.5% is not of great concern especially when you consider math scores going up.

Pretty sure when the new poverty threshold number is lowered to $10,713 that 15% will become close to 11.2%.

While the median household income increased 420% the Total Budget has increased by 772%. This likely the root cause of our current national debt predicament. By returning the budget to numbers in line with median household income levels rising (420%) we come up with a $2.1 Trillion budget saving $1.4 Trillion a year.

Lastly when adjusting total welfare spending to be in line with the 1974 rates we reduce spending from $500 Billion to $185 Billion or 8.8% of total revised $2.1 trillion budget.

By simply returning to 1974 standards we raise minimum wage by a $1.15/hr. and save $1.4 Trillion a year changing a $680 billion deficit into a $720 billion surplus.

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/total_spending_2013
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT_Reasoning_Test
http://money.cnn.com/2013/09/17/news...overty-income/
http://www.davemanuel.com/median-household-income.php

[dellinger63]

Welfare Spending increase from 1974-2013

1,246 percent or four times the increase of Median Household Income

Take another bow America!!

[Rudeboyelvis]

yeah but Dell you didn't get the memo that paying people a ridiculously high minimum wage is going to fix 'Merica cuz a biased study subsidized by organized labor said so.
Oh, and the federal tax subsidies will automatically stop too because if they pay out more money then they won't need to raise prices or won't need as many tax breaks which in turn will be voluntarily given back to the tax payers ...or something.....Wait... maybe it was that they would need to raise prices and spur hyper-inflation AND need more tax subsidies because they have less dollars coming in....but that's all ok, because then the minimum wage workers would get a few dollars less back on their 1040EZ which makes us all winners...or something.

I'm sorry...Removing common sense gets confusing. My apologies.

[dellinger63]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

yeah but Dell you didn't get the memo that paying people a ridiculously high minimum wage is going to fix 'Merica cuz a biased study subsidized by organized labor said so.
Oh, and the federal tax subsidies will automatically stop too because if they pay out more money then they won't need to raise prices or won't need as many tax breaks which in turn will be voluntarily given back to the tax payers ...or something.....Wait... maybe it was that they would need to raise prices and spur hyper-inflation AND need more tax subsidies because they have less dollars coming in....but that's all ok, because then the minimum wage workers would get a few dollars less back on their 1040EZ which makes us all winners...or something.

I'm sorry...Removing common sense gets confusing. My apologies.

Sucks when numbers and facts get in the way of a perfectly good movement.

[jms62]

Hyper inflation ? Pretty funny stuff. Raise your prices and see how many people line up to buy what you are selling. I am going to see you raising your prices and not raise mine and crush you. The Hyper Inflation scare tactic against raising the minimum wage is quite tired. You need to seriously worry about DEFLATION like during the Great Depression. We have wealth concentraion that is approaching the level it was prior to the start of the great depression. All we need now is a triggering event for the middle class to shut down spending on everything but the bare necessities of life.

Having said this I am in the camp of raising the minimum wage similiar to what Dell suggested not some absurd doubling.

[dylbert]

This has been an interesting early morning read. Thread begins with 'study' that most academics would consider suspect, if not outright invalid. Extrapolating findings from median values is folly.

35 years ago I was graduate student in economics at a well-known US university. My graduate assistant stipend, $175 per month, was mostly funded by two 'studies'. One study measured the impact of new navigable waterway system on rural unemployment in Mississippi & Alabama. The second one trained government workers on how to run 'Comprehensive Education & Training' programs. Both studies were funded through grants from US government.

Corps of Engineers wanted study that showed that new waterway system lowered unemployment. We delivered one. Carter Administration wanted to create new training & employment programs. We delivered training on how to startup & fund programs in rural South.

My point is give an academic a grant and you will get answer you want! Give these quasi-government think tank outfits money and they too will provide answer you want. And with today's technology, most anyone can mashup 'facts' from any number of 'studies' to support any argument or cause.

So find a study, start thread, and watch the fun begin!

[Danzig]

Originally Posted by Rudeboyelvis

yeah but Dell you didn't get the memo that paying people a ridiculously high minimum wage is going to fix 'Merica cuz a biased study subsidized by organized labor said so.
Oh, and the federal tax subsidies will automatically stop too because if they pay out more money then they won't need to raise prices or won't need as many tax breaks which in turn will be voluntarily given back to the tax payers ...or something.....Wait... maybe it was that they would need to raise prices and spur hyper-inflation AND need more tax subsidies because they have less dollars coming in....but that's all ok, because then the minimum wage workers would get a few dollars less back on their 1040EZ which makes us all winners...or something.

I'm sorry...Removing common sense gets confusing. My apologies.

Define ridiculously high.

As has been shown, repeatedly, had minimum wage continued to track as it used to, it would be 10.50/hour right now. The same time that the minimum wage started lagging behid is when all other wages started to falter. It also coincides with pay to the top earners growing like crazy. The money the corporations are paying out started skewing. Its common sense to accept the gap between employee and exec pay? It is common sense to say they cannot afford to pay their employees when you see the amazing increases to the tip execs? I could accept that wagez had a good reason to be lower, were it not for the fact they are not lower for everyone.
The money is there, the prioritizing is not.